But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Of course Trump is worse.
Now let’s not pretend that the Democratic Party has any love at all for these protestors. Let’s not pretend that the prevailing sentiment in this community isn’t that these protestors should shut up and stop criticizing US support for Netanyahu’s genocide because they’re worried it makes Biden look bad.
And let’s not pretend that the US isn’t a two-party system.
Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Your choices are Trump or Biden.
And I’m voting for Biden.
No sarcasm whatsoever - thank you.
Then why are you campaigning for Trump?
One can dislike Biden without liking Trump.
Question: Does this heightened level of nuance transfer onto a FPTP voting system?
Answer: absolutely not.
Your comment should read “One can dislike Biden without demanding voters elect a bigger dipshit”…
But it doesn’t.
This whole thing of “you need to lie about the facts to make one side look way better than they are or else you are campaigning for the other side” thing needs to go. It just needs to go. It isn’t fooling anyone, and it just makes everyone doing it come across as idiots. Own your stance, be honest about what we can all see, and try to explain why you feel like you do from base reality. I know you’ve been told it makes you a traitor or whatever, but it simply doesn’t. It makes you come across as a genuine person, and it makes the things you say have more weight.
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My agenda is to see more honest discussions. It is not a hidden agenda. I am very open about it. I, and many other people, honestly believe that Joe is doing a horrific job. I also honestly believe that Trump would do a horrific job. I am disgusted by the fact that nobody who could potentially make it into the White House has shown anything but complete and utter contempt for the innocent lives in Gaza.
I absolutely refuse to pretend that Biden is great for Gaza in some pathetic attempt to trick idiots who somehow haven’t paid attention into thinking that Biden isn’t floating in am Olympic sized pool of children’s blood. I’m not saying Trump will do any better, and I’m not saying I will vote for Trump. All I am saying is that we will all be better off if vocal people like yourself were to at least try to have honest dialogs. No strawman, no hidden agenda, just plain, honest discussion. The thing that has offended you so deeply can be summed up in a single word. Honesty.
I’m happy to engage in nuanced, fair, complex discourse about US politics with anyone who wants to have it, and I have criticisms of my party.
Do tell. What criticisms do you have of the Democratic Party?
That is not at all what’s happening. The world is much less black and white than you think.
I’m not campaigning for Trump.
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@Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world is gonna twist it around, call you a centrist, and cry about being bullied.
Now compare your fanfic to what actually happened.
I guess you’re conveniently forgetting about yesterday where you made an absolute fool of yourself and got caught lying.
Btw I’m STILL waiting on that answer.
Removed, civility.
Oh I know. Trust me, I don’t engage with these people with any illusions. There’s no arguing with the agitprop element here. The point of responding at all is just to identify them to the general public.
Biden thinks the protestors have a First Amendment right to speak out. Repubs want them attacked by the National Guard and/or deported to a war zone.
I did not mention Biden’s opinion regarding the protestors.
Yes, that’s why it’s important someone did mention it.
Yes, it’s vitally important to change the subject and argue against something I didn’t say.
You guys never have the courage to say what you mean, just hint at it. Say what you mean.
Thank god I have centrists to tell me that I mean tons of shit I don’t say.
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So what are you going to do about it?
Vote for Biden in November and criticize his support for genocide until he stops. I’ve said this more than a few times already.
This is the way
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Vote for Biden, of course. There’s no better choice, to my utter dismay.
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Real change won’t occur within the next few months.
Congratulations.
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Sorry. I’m coming to this with the understanding that delay means that many fewer living Palestinians and that much closer to Netanyahu completing his genocide. I consider this situation to be too time-sensitive for incrementalism, and I have a tendency to regard calls for patience in the face of this to be callous.
I also firmly believe that Biden is harming his own chances of defeating Trump by supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, and that the future of democracy in the US rests on his willingness to cease his support.
If Biden does not change in the next few months, I fear things will get much worse and may never improve for the human species.
Let’s pretend about that world…
As trump gasses these folks…
But it’s someone else gassing people… it’s not the same republicans that did it back in the day with the patriots act. No that was different…
The prevailing attitude on Lemmy seems to be that Israel should be wiped from the face of the earth. Comments that don’t support the protesters are quite rare.
Not many people outside of the full-on tankie brigades are arguing that Israel has no right to exist as a country. On the other hand, they are arguing that Palestinine also has a right to exist as a country, and that the land that Israel has unjustly taken, and continues to take, should be returned. And that Israel should need to make reparations for the Palestinian non-combatants they’ve killed, and the land they’ve stolen.
It’s clear that Israel as a country will never allow Palestinians to have a full voice in their government, so the only reasonable choice at this point is a two-state solution.
Israel is sure doing their best job to try and make that the prevailing attitude. And frankly, I don’t know that I disagree anymore. Get the civilians out of harms way, and then wipe out the government and the IDF, alongside Hamas.
let’s ask the Gazans if they want Trump or Biden to win in November
If they want any chance in hell, they pick Biden.
Trump rolls out the red carpet for Netanyahu and tries to secure the rights to build a hotel and golf resort on the beach in Gaza.
Actually if they want a chance they will go with a wild card because they already know what Biden would do.
If you think trump is a wild card on this topic I really don’t know what to tell you.
you wanna hold your breath with me while we wait for that chance Joe “Im a Zionist” Biden gives them?
If that’s your best option, that’s what you have to do.
This is how logic and critical thinking work.
Can you provide a better alternative?
I’d say Jill Stein would probably be the best option for them of the choices we have.
She’s not an option given the current state of the democratic system used in the country.
The only way it works is if people banded together and changed the system, then a 3rd party system becomes viable.
sure she is, votes count the same for her as for anyone else.
The “Best Option” placed 4th in 2016 and her party did worse in 2020:
2016:
Donald Trump Republican 62,984,828 - 46.09%
Hillary Clinton Democratic 65,853,514 - 48.18%
Gary Johnson Libertarian 4,489,341 - 3.28%
Jill Stein Green 1,457,218 - 1.07%2020:
Joe Biden Democratic 81,283,501 - 51.31%
Donald Trump Republican 74,223,975 - 46.85%
Jo Jorgensen Libertarian 1,865,535 - 1.18%
Howie Hawkins Green 407,068 - 0.26%Yeah, more people should be voting for her. Like, if you care about stuff like Biden using emergency powers to bypass congress to send missiles to Israel to help kill more Gazan civilians.
Do you mean russian asset Jill Stein?
she’s not a russian asset. this is libel.
You talking about that one photo? You wont believe who else has been to Russia several times.
I don’t think Stein is still the Green Party candidate, if that’s what you’re referencing
She is
Based on this article, I think they’d want Biden.
There is a very clear choice now, that many of us have been trying to explain. Trump would be infinitely worse for Palestinians, and he proves it to you here. If you actually care about the Palestinians, it’s clear which of the two you should vote for.
If you only care about scoring political points however and using the Palestinians as pawns to that end, I could see why your voting decision would be more challenging.
I dont think you understand how dire things are for palestinians right now. Even if Trump were elected and Gaza was completely wiped off the map, he’d only be responsible for like 10% of the destruction. Its about to be completely gone, Rafah is the last place in Gaza and its already being bombed. Really tired of this lame excuse for Bidens genocide.
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Biden
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
Okay. How is trump better for human rights? Or… anything.
Take your time.
In what way did I even argue anything was better with trump?
And just makes it worse when Biden is doing some of his polices.
Bidens better in some ways and continuing or advocating for Trumps policies in others.
So makes sense why some would say that
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Yeah in response to
But Biden is as bad as Trump according to some here. Yeah, ok.
Bidens literally continuing trumps immigration policy and trying to get even more right wing immigration policy in.
The only reason it “makes sense” to pick trump over Biden is if you think the orange fuck has some redeeming qualities. So what are they?
Do you think pointing out how Biden is bad can only mean a person in pro trump?
Again where did say anything about trump good?
I think we all knew this of President Drink Bleach, and we saw how he tear-gassed protesters that time when he held a Bible visibly for a photo shoot.
Trump’s issue, I optimistically believe, is that those who wrote “Uncommitted” during the primaries and those who point out the ongoing genocide will still vote for Biden - because everyone has already correctly assumed what this article is stating.
Nonetheless, it’s reaffirming to have confirmation. Thank you for posting this.
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The important part is to align him with Biden and shit all over everything.
It doesn’t matter if there is a republican giving full throated support to apartheid… if a democrat even seems icky that’s more important.
But what is Genocide Joe going to do to earn MY vote.
South Park turned a whole fucking generation into “but both sides suck” idiots.
He’s not gonna be Trump. Got my vote.
Biden is required to ship weapons to Israel by law. He is doing what he can to limit Israel’s carnage. Remember the USS Liberty? Israel doesn’t care about anyone other than Israel.
Thank you for that link. It will be helpful.
A lot of people are unaware of Jonathan Pollard too.
Yup.
Would I like a better candidate? Of course. Do I want to cause untold suffering to myself and the people I love? Nope.
Not even just the people you love. This article makes it exceptionally clear that if you actually care about the Palestinians, Trump winning is the absolute worst case scenario.
Bingo.
Whatever “genocide person” does for you is irrelevant. You are someone desperately asking for others to solve your problems. At worst the rest of us will solve your problems, otherwise you might do it yourself but I have my doubts…
This comment section is nothing but crabs in a bucket. This is why rightoids have people banning masks and forming armies of idiots while the left toils against each other. Being unified like the right has benefits but is against our ideals. We need to find a way to compromise with each other to get the most important things we can agree on done.
And yet the same people will hold their intelligence and principals in high regard.
Meanwhile, the Right keeps stacking their deck by playing tribal games with emotions.
When the "scorecard " is tallied, you’ll notice intelligence and principals don’t count for much if they’re not being represented.
All I’m looking for is spears pointed in the right direction at this point. This is it. Right here, right now. We either vote in Trump and lose all democracy or we bite our tongue and use another Biden term to get ranked choice. We can no longer afford to kick the can down the road.
Centrists will never compromise leftward.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment. The middle is a larger and more reliable voter base.
But, I think that’s going to change over the next few decades. Progressives and further left people are becoming an increasingly important and large voting bloc. Numerically it will soon make sense to compromise leftwards to get more votes than compromising with the center. We’re just not there yet.
I think this is more because of a population imbalance. Left voters are not numerous enough to be worth compromising for – on a purely numbers based assessment.
If they’re a large enough group to blame when ya lose, they’re a large enough group to compromise with.
I don’t disagree there, but that’s also why I don’t believe in blaming the left nor attributing losses to them. It isn’t a large enough group to have that much sway yet.
From a rhetorical perspective I agree – if politicians are willing to blame the left, they should be willing to work with them. Like you say, it’s logically inconsistent to blame them but also think they aren’t worth compromising with.
I also think the “rebelliousness” of leftists is overstated. I firmly believe most of them vote with Democrats so that there is harm reduction. I think a lot of the detractors are just a loud online minority. I strongly suspect for instance the “don’t threaten me with the supreme court” crowd was not even close to most of the progressives who voted in 2016. More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
More Bernie supporters voted for Clinton in 2016 than Clinton supporters for Obama in 2008, on a percentage basis.
It’s more than that. Clinton supporters started a PAC to get McCain elected when Obama won the nomination. And they’re the same people who keep saying “blue no matter who.”
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people. I think at the end of the day these two extremes are a dismissible collective group. Most of us can truly cooperate and agree on most things, and find the loud minority repulsive.
Along those lines, I appreciate that you have been consistently reasonable in discussions and arguments. Your criticisms are well founded in evidence and you show that it’s possible to be critical and displeased with Biden while still voting for him. That’s a level of intellectual nuance I wish I saw more of.
There’s definitely a considerable number of so called Democrats who find Republicans favorable to Progressives, which is utterly disgusting and a betrayal of their espoused values. Just like the loud progressive minority though, I’d like to think of them as a whiny minority that doesn’t reflect most people.
And yet in 2008, Obama won despite their efforts at sabotage. To hear centrists talk about it, anyone who so much as thought a positive thought regarding Bernie Sanders is solely responsible for Clinton’s loss in 2016.
We should be able to safely ignore the pampered, spoiled centrists who threw a massive tantrum when they didn’t get 100% of everything they wanted in 2008, and ignore progressives at our peril. We do the opposite.
That is so messed up. Makes Biden look quite reasonable on the Gaza issue in comparison.
Trump legit wants to nuke Gaza.
Biden isn’t handling the situation well, but Trump wound be orders of magnitude worse.
This is what people have been trying to say. Biden isn’t doing a great job, but Trump would be infinitely worse. If you actually care about the Palestinians instead of scoring political points, there’s a very clear choice who to vote for.
Where in the exact fuck does diaper don think he’s deporting US citizens to?
Hopefully a western European country.
Fun fact, if you’re targeted for deportation you can always voluntarily self deport. So if they create a diaspora there’s going to be 3 major populations of expats. Mexico, where the administration will dump them. Canada where the people who could only afford a road trip went. And the EU where people who can afford a plane ticket went.
He’ll put them up in one of his failing hotels then bill them for it.
These “I’m not gonna vote for Biden because my principles are too important” folks are really starting to piss me off.
Where were your principles last year? The year before? Where were they when Russia invaded Ukraine? What about the Rohingya? The Yazidi? How about here at home and what Republican power - in congress and across the courts? Where will they be if Trump wins and appoints another SCOTUS judge and packs the federal courts? When hundreds of transgender Americans are murdered? When women no longer have any autonomy over their bodies?
This isn’t about your principles. It’s not about you looking cool in a keffiyeh. This is about all of us on the left working together to reduce the most harm. You in your enormous privilege are not the main character here.
I mean seriously… get the fuck over yourselves you spoiled brats.
I suspect a lot of those people are arguing in bad faith and are actually spreading misinformation. That they never intended on voting for Biden, or always intended on voting for Trump and trying to make it seem like Biden is losing his base.
IRL, most people I know, while not happy with Biden’s response acknowledge that Trump’s view is much much worse.
I voted for Biden in 2020. At this rate I’m not voting for him in 2024.
Username checks out.
I never promised pretty.
Well put. The only principle we should be considering is saving as many lives as possible and preventing as much persecution as possible. Adherence to any principles which go against this simply shows those principles are not worth holding, not as absolutes at least.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though. The red states are just going ahead with massive civil rights violations anyways. If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore. The worst case scenario is already happening. It’s not in the future, it’s now.
Voting for the democrats isn’t saving lives though.
How do you prove or disprove this?
If the democrats won’t step in to stop them then we don’t have a reason to vote for them anymore
Do you not understand how our system of government works? Or do you just want some sort of left-leaning fascism? Admittedly, Bernie would make a great benevolent dictator… but that’s exactly the kind of thing that bites you in the ass eventually.
The president has more power than you think he does. Trump reminded us of that. And it’s simple to prove. What has he done to stop Abbot and DeSantis? He has how many federal law enforcement officers? And he hasn’t just arrested the Texas national guardsmen operating illegally on the border? Hell he could just call them to federal duty and send them to an ammo dump in Alaska.
If nothing else you’ve demonstrated your complete ignorance of how our political system works in this country. Well done!
Look up title 10 orders. The president is the commander in chief. If he won’t pull those guardsmen out of there it’s because he doesn’t mind what they’ve done.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
The pure fucking irony of you saying that when everything I just suggested is based in existing law and precedent.
LOL. You are clearly ignorant of the practical implications of such things and more generally of how politics works in real terms.
Every action a president takes either gains or loses political capital. The president does not operate in a vacuum… indeed our entire system of government is designed to have checks and balances and specifically to keep the authority of a president confined.
I must say, you have such an incredibly simplistic view of this… it’s quite stunning. You literally sound like a MAGAt, begging for authoritarian control.
You are not going to get Arab-Americans to vote for Biden, forget it. You want us to carry water for someone slaughtering us while grinning. I voted for him in 2020 and that will be the last time I ever vote Democratic, the first time was for John Kerry in 2004. Voting Republican is of course not an option, it is third party from now on though I am making arrangements to leave the country. I am paying taxes to give myself PTSD watching Arabs get slaughtered with my tax money. I know most people don’t have the means to leave the US, but I do.
Biden could have stopped this genocide from day one, not only he didn’t but he continues to supply the weapons and political cover for Israel to continue massacring women and children. There’s enough Arab-Americans to swing the election one way or another. Biden and the Democratic Party will have to earn our votes rather than extract them from us by scaring us with Trump.
How could have Biden stopped it on day one? Really. Tell us.
By not sending weapons, by withholding financial aid, by not justifying the crimes and by not vetoing the U.N. ceasefire vote multiple times. Reagan and Bush Sr. were able to do so. No surprise that Thurmond-loving Biden is to their right somehow.
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It’s your right to vote 3rd party, but doing so makes it only more likely that Trump will take office and ruin not just Palestine but the ability for Arab Americans and possibly every foreign born, and possibly non-white person in general, to live in the US. In our current political system, third parties count for nothing, it’s a wasted vote. I’m not thrilled by Biden either but voting for president has to be strategic.
3rd party vote just goes to Cheato Mussolini
wrong generalization bro , it’s actually muslim americans
You are funny. Arab Americans and Muslim Americans do overlap and both care deeply about Palestine, but are still two different groups. Most Arabs in the US are actually Christian, and the news article I linked to mentioned Arab Americans.
I would like to be deported to New Zealand please!
So all people who say then wont vote Biden because of Gaza, do you see know that Trump is even worse?
Always did, yes.
The article doesn’t seem to mention who these “donors” are… you know - the people with enough wealth to buy the politics the proles are constantly being told to “vote harder” for that seems quite happy to listen to their preferred stuffed suit talking about crushing dissent and accelerating ongoing genocide.
I haven’t read all of the comments, but here’s a fact I haven’t seen mentioned: The sociopathic narcissist doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Palestine, true, but he also doesn’t give a rat’s ass about Israel. He cares about himself, and will say or so anything to gain support and acclaim. He’s making this threat solely because it plays well to his donors.
THAT’S the scary part. If the authoritarians didn’t exist in our midst, he’d be a middle manager somewhere, instead of a contender for the office of President, again. THAT’S what we need to address, and the history of the past 30 or so years shows that getting a Democrat in office doesn’t fix anything. Electing Biden won’t make the authoritarians go away, which is why we’re back with as rematch of the 2020 election, with our democratic institutions four years weaker, and the vulnerable people in our society more scared and more under threat.
Who’s going to beat them in 2028?
They’re going to be dead or drinking fruit puree from a straw in 2028 both are at the end of their intellectual lives and being president heavily shortens what energy you have left. Neither will be doing much at all in 4 years. It’s why you should be looking at who the VPs are.
Well, my whole point here is that DJT is a symptom of the much deeper disease. It won’t be him in 2028. It will be another authoritarian, and we can count on that.
O absolutely, I don’t see the repubs going away from the continued drive right and unfortunately because of this, i don’t see the dems moving to a more progressive platform.
It’s funny how this headline is exclusively about what Trump would do to pro-palestinian demonstrators, which comports completely with what he was doing to or wanted to do to George Floyd protestors, and yet the comments are mostly about… Joe Biden?
Stay classy, Lemmy.
Do people like Trump because he aligns with their politics or because in a simple way he expresses American identities of being irreverent, ‘straight talking’ and entrepreneurial? Just a thought as an outsider.
I can’t wait to be deported back to Michigan.
Lemmy “leftists:” good thing it was never about the Palestinians.
“Leftists” on Lemmy will praise everything about China. I don’t think real socialism is supposed to be making that many billionaires, so it must be something else they admire there.
Marx always knew there would be a transition from capitalism to socialism.
None of these measures abolishes capitalism straight away; each constitutes a partial intervention by the state in the economic mechanism of capitalism, and only in the totality, and over time, are they deemed to undermine capitalism completely. Thus, for instance, the measure ‘a vigorously graduated income tax’ assumes that under the dictatorship of the proletariat there would still be marked differences in incomes – that the capitalist would not be expropriated at a stroke. ‘During the revolution, the gigantic increase in the scope of taxation may serve as an attack on private ownership; yet even in such a case taxation must be a stepping stone to fresh revolutionary measures, otherwise there will be a return to the erstwhile bourgeois conditions.’
