Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don’t come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don’t really get upset by it IRL

  • ImplyingImplications@lemmy.ca
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    64
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    9 months ago

    I’ve been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don’t eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don’t eat meat.

    • ZagamTheVile@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      29
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      9 months ago

      Yeah. I try not to mention it to people if I can avoid it. I work construction and am surrounded by manly men tring to out man each other. I had one guy offer me bear jerkey and got bent out of shape when I declined. He wouldn’t stop. He just kept on me about why I didn’t eat meat. After about an hour of him asking again and again why I don’t eat meat I said “meat’s another word for dick and eating dick is gay”. As problematic as it was, it worked.

      It never cases to amaze me that a 250pound dude with a 40oz soda in one hand and a mouthfull of gas station pizza thinks he has the responsibility to lecture me about nutrition.

    • BruceTwarzen@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      9 months ago

      My dad always acts like i’m close to dying because i’m vegan. I work out every day, he eats meat 3 times a day and even his vegetables are unhealthy as fuck. He’s so overweight that getting into his car is super exhausting. Pretty weird if someone like that gives you tips on how to eat right.

    • Björn Tantau@swg-empire.de
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      9 months ago

      I did get offended when, after a very successful date, I went to a shawarma place with her and we both had a super awesome shawarma with lots of meat. For the next date I made some pizza rolls with salami and she confessed that she actually doesn’t eat meat.

      I still tease her about that when I meet her nowadays.

  • BrikoX@lemmy.zip
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    64
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    9 months ago

    From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.

    • CalciumDeficiency@lemmy.worldOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      9 months ago

      I think there’s nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah’s witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them

      • themeatbridge@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        48
        arrow-down
        8
        ·
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        It’s not just pushy, it’s judgemental and vitriolic

        Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you’re so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.

        Even the arguments for veganism that aren’t built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don’t you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!

        The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.

        • spankinspinach@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          9 months ago

          In my experience, your first sentence sums it up nicely.

          They assume a moral high ground because they’ve adopted a diet that is generally deemed healthier and better for the environment (I don’t always agree with this).

          But unless they’re also doing all the things we could all do better (e.g. not buying new, not upgrading the the latest and greatest, not taking 40 minute showers, not eating out every second day), they’re only somewhat less guilty of environmental damage than the average person, but they’re taking a generally undeserved “holier than thou” position and then shoving it down your throat. This isn’t everyone, and I don’t really care what you eat, but these are the vegans that get under my skin.

          • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            If I tell you that I bike to work, walk to the grocery store, buy most of my products used, and don’t have an Amazon account, will you listen to me?

        • FinishingDutch@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          9 months ago

          There’s also the ‘guilt by association’. Look at organisations like PETA: they even complained about things like the treatment of entirely fictional animals in video games., like Palworld. Basically, you can’t even argue that ‘they look like real animals so it encourages real-world mistreatment’ like they usually do.

          That does not make you look particularly sane. I’m sure they do good work as well, but that sort of thing isn’t helping their cause.

          • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            The current vegan movement has nothing to do with religion, except at the individual level. You’re conflating being vegan for religious reasons with being one for secular moral reasons. Modern vegans came from a split in vegetarian activist groups because too many vegetarians weren’t willing to criticize the dairy industry and its practices.

        • Feyd@programming.dev
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          11
          arrow-down
          14
          ·
          9 months ago

          In my experience it’s usually more like: Them: here have some of this meat thing Me: No thanks Them: why not it’s really good try some Me: i don’t eat meat Them: but why? Me: to reduce animal cruelty and environmental harm Them: wow how dare you be so judgy

          I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to not offend this type of person in this situation and frankly I don’t think it’s my fault or my problem they’re offended. My theory is that that agree with my reasons but rather than change or live with the cognitive dissonance they just lash out at anyone that reminds them they could be living more ethically even if they basically MAKE them say it.

          Blaming vegans for that is bullshit, frankly

          • Pronell@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            9 months ago

            That isn’t the type of behavior that I think most find annoying but I’m sorry that you get that reaction at all.

            I think many people are so annoyed with feeling they are attacked for eating meat (and I do eat meat) that when that button gets pressed the anger just rises up.

            For me I get a little true guilt. I know I’m not helping in the best possible ways that I can, all the time. I’m not perfect and won’t ever pretend that I am, and I also haven’t given up on getting better. When I go a day without eating meat, I congratulate myself. With a burger. (No, not really.)

          • fishos@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            Some people see “to reduce animal cruelty” as judgy because that’s just how nature is. The moral superiority comes from you acting like you’re somehow above everyone and everything else. It’s entirely in your wording and the implications that if you eat meat, you enjoy animal suffering vs seeing it as a natural outcome of nature.

            • Feyd@programming.dev
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 months ago
              1. This is completely besides the point, but I personally view factory farming as different than what happens in nature.

              2. This is also beside the point, but you are making some wild logical leaps here. The fact that I personally don’t want to support factory farming because I think it is cruel in no way means that I think other people “enjoy animal suffering” and assuming that is arbitrarily assigning thoughts I have never had to me.

              3. None of the above is really relevant because I should be allowed to go about my day without justifying my dietary choices just as people that eat meat should.

      • AnyOldName3@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        The UK has a high rate of veganism, and part of that is attributed to the fact that the major vegetarian and vegan organisations in the UK generally recommend persuading people by offering them delicious food that is also vegetarian/vegan and saying it’s more ethical. On the other hand, the equivalent organisations in the US tend to lean more towards recommending telling people that eating animal products is unethical, and it’s difficult to accuse someone of unethical behaviour without being insulting. It also doesn’t help that multibillion-dollar organisations have run successful smear campaigns against groups like PETA - everyone’s heard of the time they took someone’s pet dog and killed it, but most aren’t aware that it happened once and gets reported on as if it’s news every few months, or that it was an accident as the dog’s collar had come off and it was with a group of strays, and got muddled with another dog, so was put down weeks earlier than it was supposed to be, bypassing the waiting period they had specifically to avoid this kind of mistake.

  • Nougat@fedia.io
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    54
    arrow-down
    14
    ·
    9 months ago

    It’s a first world hill to die on, and many of the people who espouse veganism are only able to do so because of their own privilege.

    It’s a combination of smugness and “I’m better than you” and the lack of awareness that everyone had and continues to benefit from a world that has always used animal products. The Industrial Revolution basically ran on steam engines and leather belts, for example.

    I have absolutely no problem with the idea that using fewer animal products and eating less meat is a good idea. I also recognize that feeding the world’s growing population is probably going to involve insects being more widely used as a food source.

    • CalciumDeficiency@lemmy.worldOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      9 months ago

      Found it interesting to discover that the money here in the UK is made from animal parts - I think certain notes contain tallow? Definitely seems like it is impossible to fully exclude animal products from your daily life unless you go off the grid and try to be an entirely self sufficient vegan homesteader, which, while extremely difficult and likely dangerous is still an option open to those preaching a vegan lifestyle. Vegans often do not actually practise their philosophy as far as is practical and possible, they all draw the line somewhere so far as how willing they are to sacrifice their comfort and convenience. Like there are no fully vegan cars - the glue is animal based, even if you opt out of a leather interior. Public transport or taking a job you can walk to are alternatives in the UK if you actually cared about benefitting from animals as little as possible, but few vegans will make sacrifices which are actually inconvenient once you get down to the nitty gritty

      Imo being a vegan so far as diet and basic lifestyle changes goes is fairly easy for some people (they don’t really like meat to begin with, know how to cook and enjoy it, no real health issues, disposable income) but the real test of how much they actually believe in these ideas is in if they consistently give up more niche forms of animal exploitation wherever they can

      • rudyharrelson@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        I think “the money is made from animal parts and there are no fully vegan cars so you’re arbitrarily picking and choosing when to be vegan” misses the point of ideological veganism. I’m not a vegan, but I believe the goal for ideological vegans (in contrast with those who are vegan for medical reasons) is to minimize suffering and exploitation within reason for the specific reasons you said. No one can be 100% free of animal parts unless they become an off-the-grid self-sustained homestead.

        Vegans know that. But most come to the conclusion that just because you can’t live 100% animal free doesn’t mean you can’t try to get to 80% because you want to live your life in a manner you consider morally and ethically consistent with your collective ideologies. You get as close as you can within reason depending on the various constraints of your individual circumstances. “I am still a vegetarian, and I try to be a vegan, but I occasionally cheat. If there’s a cheese pizza on the band bus, I might sneak a piece,” to quote Weird Al Yankovic.

        I’d say most people, including vegans, have more than one goal in life. The “lines in the sand” you’re referring to are at the intersection of their goal to minimize suffering and their goal to, say, keep living. Like if a vegan were told by their doctor, “If you don’t start eating meat, you’ll die from this weird disease,” the vegan likely wouldn’t be like, “Well, I might as well indulge in eggs and milk and all other animal products now since I can’t be 100% vegan” and chow down. They’d probably eat just the amount prescribed by their doctor, because they still don’t like eating meat because its origins bother them.

    • SporeAdic@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      Vegans literally are suggesting solutions to the growing population because in almost every situation, it is much more efficient by land and water use for people to eat plant-based rather than meat. It’s only a “first world hill to die on” if you think poor people can’t eat plants. Sorry but I don’t think this is a very accurate take…

      • Nougat@fedia.io
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        9 months ago

        “Meat from herd mammals” is not at all the sum total of use of animal products. Should we all be eating less beef? Sure, I can get behind that. None? I’m okay with that, too. What about eggs, cheese, butter - and that’s only referring to things we eat, not things we use for other purposes.

    • jeffw@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      16
      arrow-down
      20
      ·
      9 months ago

      What privilege? Meat is the most expensive food out there. Eating rice and beans isn’t really showing privilege

      • Bonehead@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        Those aren’t the vegans that most people are talking about. Being poor and having to eat vegan is different from being vegan because you want to stand out from everyone else with your vegan black bean soy burger with vegan cheese on a vegan sprouted whole wheat bun. If you can afford the overpriced “vegan” versions of typically non-vegan foods, and complain about your struggles being vegan, that’s privilege.

        When you’re poor, you don’t advertise the fact that you’re eating vegan. You just make rice and beans because it’s the absolute cheapest food available. You’ll take meat and non-vegan when it’s available. But at the very least, you’ll survive on rice and beans. It’s generally not something that people are proud of.

        • Passerby6497@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          9 months ago

          You just make rice and beans because it’s the absolute cheapest food available. You’ll take meat and non-vegan when it’s available. But at the very least, you’ll survive on rice and beans.

          This. When I was poor ad and regularly using the food bank they’d give venison periodically, and that was my favorite part of the boxes. That and this rice and seasoning meals went together amazingly and would last me like a week of meals.

        • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          ·
          9 months ago

          You’re making a big assumption here by saying that all vegans are buying vegan substitutes like Beyond Burgers. And I mean very big, since all the vegans I know don’t eat that stuff or buy it occasionally as a treat, or at a restaurant. Most of my meals are simple with rice, noodles, curry paste, and some vegetables. They can even be frozen or canned to reduce preparation time.

      • r4venw@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        9 months ago

        Maybe they mean privilege wrt education? As i understand it, it takes a non-zero amount of knowledge about nutrition to substitute meat completely and not be deficient in something. But I’m a life-long omnivore so I may be wrong

        • nature_man@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          9 months ago

          There’s also the privilege of living in a location where vegan alternatives are readily and frequently available, vast swaths of the US are in what’s known as “food deserts”, locations where “residents’ access to affordable, healthy food options (especially fresh fruits and vegetables) is restricted or nonexistent due to the absence of grocery stores within convenient traveling distance” (https://foodispower.org/access-health/food-deserts/) these locations also tend to have high obesity or diabetes rates due to the fact that the only food easily and cheaply available is high in sugar. Add in things like the increased price for even simple vegan foods (like rice and beans) and you might be starting to see the picture, as much as some people would LIKE to be vegan it is literally not possible for them without either taking on substantial additional costs or completely upending their life.

          A lot of the reason people who are otherwise pro-vegan (like myself) tend to dislike online vegans is that they will, consistently and smugly, while in a location and economic position where its easier to get vegan options, berate people for eating animal products without ever considering the possibility that its MUCH harder to get non-animal product based foods in certain areas

          • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            A lot of people online will also point to food deserts in other parts of the country as a reason they, living within 20 minutes of 5 different grocery stores, personally won’t make any changes.

      • Mostly_Gristle@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        9 months ago

        The privilege is being able to choose to eat that way out of a sense of morality or fashion rather for the reason that it’s literally all there is to eat. The privilege is being able to turn your nose up at perfectly edible food for no other reason than that it’s got a bit of egg, honey, or butter in it without having to worry about starving to death. The privilege is also having access to such an abundance and variety of food that you can maintain a vegan diet year round and not have to fear that you won’t meet all the calorie, protein, and vitamin requirements you need to stay alive and healthy while much of the world is in a constant struggle to scrape together enough calories of any kind to stay alive.

      • ricecake@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        Well, that’s getting into the difference between veganism and vegetarianism.

        That aside, although meat is expensive from a cost and input perspective, it is a very efficient and dense source of calories and protein.
        Outside of a first world or industrial agricultural setting, they also have the advantage of being able to convert food sources humans cannot eat into one we can, while to a great degree being able to tend to themselves.
        Goats, sheep and chickens can have large numbers managed by a few children with sticks, and also produce non-vegan animal byproducts which can be sold for cash.
        This is also before hunting is considered.

        While vegetarianism and veganism can be practiced outside of a first world context, and indeed have been for thousands of years, they do come with sacrifices that are significantly easier to make with more money or in a post agricultural region.
        Eschewing cheese, eggs and honey is not a difficult thing to do for me if I wanted, but there are places where that’s just leaving good food uneaten, or money unearned.

        That’s I believe what’s being referred to when it’s called a privilege.

      • Nougat@fedia.io
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        edit-2
        9 months ago

        Vegan: no animal products. No butter, no eggs, having to be well-informed (as others have stated) and know about the content of every bit of everything you buy, and making choices on that basis instead of on cost.

        Even then, how many of the products you buy and use every day have depended on animal products for their manufacture? I’m willing to bet that a fair amount of human labor consumes and uses animal products to sustain themselves, even if there are no animal products in the thing you’re buying. I don’t think it’s fair to compartmentalize that away from purchasing decisions. The people who put your flat pack MDF furniture in a box, did they have a chicken sandwich on their lunch break? The people who are paving the roads and maintain the rails on which the products you ultimately buy, are they wearing leather boots?

        Everyone depends, to some degree or another, on the use of animal products, either as food or for some other purpose. Even vegans.

        Edit: Like I said above, reducing dependence on animal products is probably a good idea, but people who believe they have eliminated their dependence on animal products are patting themselves on the back for something they simply cannot accomplish.

        • Bipta@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          9 months ago

          The people who put your flat pack MDF furniture in a box, did they have a chicken sandwich on their lunch break?

          Congratulations on synthesizing truly the dumbest argument I have ever seen in my entire life.

          • andyburke@fedia.io
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            Can you explain what’s wrong with this argument? As a relatively disinterested observer it seems reasonable to me.

            • Buffalox@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              9 months ago

              Being Vegan is a choice for yourself so it’s a fallacy to argue that others are not Vegan, and saying it doesn’t help to try to make a difference unless everybody does it is also a fallacy.
              So the argument is based on no less than 2 obvious fallacies, and is obviously outright idiotic. Which makes you a probable troll.

              • andyburke@fedia.io
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                edit-2
                9 months ago

                I’ll say that this reaction does nothing to make me think you are approaching this with any objectivity.

                The argument, to me, seems to be that it’s impossible in the modern world as things stand to actually totally avoid animal products. That would seem like an issue that Veganism should be concerned with.

                I see your point, I think, about it being an individual choice. But though I have heard of things like vegan shoes, I can see how saying those are vegan when you may not control all the inputs seems problematic.

                Regardless, your response was so unpleasant that I don’t think I’m much interested in continuing.

          • Nougat@fedia.io
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            9 months ago

            If you’re okay with compartmentalizing that out of the production of goods and services you use, that’s a you thing.

            • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              Why is it reasonable to expect me to have any control over what a factory worker is eating? There are entirely vegan businesses, but its setting up a ridiculous goal post to claim vegans are somehow hypocritical by not having a 100% vegan production chain as a consumer, which is literally impossible in the current world. If we could, we absolutely would. But if you want to argue that vegans should handcraft and grow literally everything they use as an excuse not make any changes yourself, I don’t know what to say.

        • Tywèle [she|her]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          9 months ago

          Veganism is not about completely eliminating every use of animal products no matter what. It’s about reducing animal suffering and their exploitation as long as it’s possible and practicable.

          “Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals.”

          From https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

  • TORFdot0@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    34
    arrow-down
    6
    ·
    9 months ago

    People don’t hate veganism as much as they don’t appreciate being judged for their choices and chastised by other adults for beliefs that they don’t share.

    Personally I have no problem respecting the beliefs of people who are vegan due to their personal morals. Until they start disrespecting the beliefs of others who don’t agree with them with regards to meat, then they become annoying.

  • Dojan@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    27
    ·
    edit-2
    9 months ago

    Speaking as a life-long lacto-ovo vegetarian who did a ten year stint as a vegan (I’m 30), it’s because there is a subset of the vegan population that’s very gung-ho about their diet and wants to proselytize about it, and no one likes being told what they should eat. When you remark on people’s diets, people tend to get annoyed and defensive about it.

    I grew up being told that my food looked yucky, how I can’t call something meatballs since it doesn’t contain meat, how since I don’t eat protein I’ll die, so on, so forth. It got annoying fast, so now I don’t generally discuss my diet unless it makes a contextual sense. e.g. when planning a restaurant outing with people - though to be frank I often just avoid social situations where food plays a role.

    I think where the big clashes really happen is when someone has made veganism/eating meat a core part of their identity, having that criticised, however gently that might be, will cause friction and often cause people to double-down on it; even though they may know on some level that the criticism might even be valid. You can see this in the fat pride movement as well.

    • BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      9 months ago

      Bingo!

      It’s the “identity” thing that fouls up so much today.

      “You have to accept everything do because it’s my identity”.

      Um, no, I don’t have to “accept” anything about you. Nor do you have to “accept” anything about me. Hell, I figured this out when I was five. Fine, you don’t like something about me? Then I won’t waste my time with you. Thanks for making it clear.

    • DessertStorms@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      10
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      And some just see those who militantly focus on attacking fellow individuals instead of the systems that are actually to blame (but which they otherwise support and/or benefit from, like capitalism, racism, and ableism) counterproductive, annoying, and hypocritical.

      The militant vegans I have come across, and being vegan myself, it’s a lot, far too many (E: to the point I actively avoid vegan spaces), are almost exclusively drowning in so much privilege, they can’t see how ridiculous they’re being in their bizarre militancy of policing other people’s plates instead of the actual industries abusing animals (and humans, who these vegans rarely to never pay any thought to, not out loud or in their actions, anyway).

      (before I even hit send: if you feel personally attacked by my comment - that’s a sign for you to think about it with yourself and ideally do something about it, not try and prove me wrong, inevitably proving me 100% right)

    • qevlarr@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      Fascinating! Thank you for this article. It exactly describes what’s happening: “oh, you think you’re better than us? I’ll have another steak!”

  • Admiral Patrick@dubvee.org
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    27
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    9 months ago

    Yeah I don’t get it either. You do you 🤷🏼‍♂️

    As long as people aren’t trying to force their views on me (veganism, religion, what have you), I couldn’t care less.

    • radix@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      ·
      9 months ago

      This is my experience as well. People don’t hate vegans specifically, they hate evangelists generally.

    • Captain Janeway@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      17
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      9 months ago

      There in lies the rub, though. Most vegans are vegan for a moral reason that they believe applies to you:

      • Animals deserve life / don’t deserve livestock conditions
      • “Growing” meat is speeding up global warming compared to growing crop

      There are more fringe reasons for veganism such as: diet, health, etc. But those aren’t relevant to the point I’m making.

      “Live and let live” doesn’t apply to situations where we’re talking about global warming or the abuse of animals. Most vegans are trying to educate others and - yeah - they probably vote for things that would result in more expensive meat or less meat being available in your local markets. I believe most vegans are hoping their efforts will slow global warming and provide better living conditions for livestock.

      I’m not trying to sit on a moral podium here and judge. I eat meat too. I’m not vegan. Though I’ve tried to reduce how much meat I eat in yet another small, feckless, civilian effort to slow global warming. All I’m saying is: I sympathize with people who want to improve the world and I understand why they spend time and effort talking about being vegan.

      But meat in america is cheaper than the vegan stuff and definitely tastier. So it’s hard for us to meaningfully change.

      • CalciumDeficiency@lemmy.worldOP
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        6
        ·
        9 months ago

        By vegan stuff do you mean things like meat replacements? My diet is mostly vegetarian, for the same reasons as you stated, and honestly I see zero appeal in things like Beyond products, but I also think they’re totally unnecessary. When I’ve done Veganuary in the past, I tend to eat a lot of whole foods (tofu, legumes, beans, fruit and veg) and here in the UK that is cheaper than eating meat. But, I know the economic model for the US is quite different so I wouldn’t be surprised if things like chicken were cheaper than tofu or Seitan

        • Captain Janeway@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          9 months ago

          I was talking about meat replacements but I put tofu in that category as well because I don’t have a lot of experience with tofu outside of “we have this instead of meat”.

          Vegan food is cheaper in America, for sure. Beans, veg (some) and rice are cheap. However fruit is expensive.

          But the alternatives to meat are not cheap: tofu is like $5/lb compared to chicken which can be as low as $2.99/lb. Steak is expensive in America, but it can be close to the cost of tofu. It’s definitely cheaper than the steak-alternatives like beyond meat.

          While you might find meat replacements to be unnecessary, most Americans (myself included) struggle. 90% of the meals I used to eat were some variation of: protein (meat/chicken/fish), plus a veggie, plus a carb (rice/bread). That was the basic dinner. It has a nice ratio of protein to carb. It was tasty (to me at least) and the cost wasn’t too bad.

          I’m guessing I’m not alone, culturally. It’s not like you can fry up two slabs of tofu and just call it a day. Tofu is just different. It doesn’t cook the same and it doesn’t taste the same. I cook tofu at least once a week, but I treat it very differently.

          It’s just not easy for Americans to justify going vegan. It’s culturally very different and - if you want to stay within the culture - it’s expensive.

          But that’s why I always advocate for meat reduction, not replacement. Eat more vegetables. Try other dinners. Etc. But most Americans are remiss to be told what to do.

          • CalciumDeficiency@lemmy.worldOP
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            ·
            9 months ago

            That’s interesting, I suppose meat being so culturally important would definitely make substitutes feel essential, and if they’re so much more expensive veganism can quickly feel like a privileged stance

  • jacktherippah@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    32
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    9 months ago

    I don’t hate veganism. It’s a dietary choice and that’s fine. What I hate is vegans. They’re always pushy and judgmental and hateful and sometimes even destructive in their activism. They’re an annoying group of people and I just don’t want to have to deal with them.

    • GBU_28@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      9 months ago

      Unfortunately this is a topic like abortion.

      Vegans and pro life folks see what “others” are doing as murder/evil. So naturally, since they view the behavior as absolutely inappropriate, their discussion of the topic is always very energetic.

      I am not advocating for any dietary path, or abortion position in this comment. I’m only describing people’s behavior. Do not misrepresent me.

    • r0ertel@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      9 months ago

      I came here to say the thing that you said in better words. I’m on a diet for health reasons that closely resembles the vegan diet, so to keep it simple, I’ll say to people that I’m vegan. Most wait staff don’t care if I ask if a menu item can be made vegan, but family or people I’m dining with will either send hate vibes or go into a long thing about some distant vegan relative who died from malnutrition.

    • Fire Witch@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      edit-2
      9 months ago

      It’s an issue of the loud ones standing out the most. I can easily say the same thing about many carnivores I know, who moan and complain if there’s as much as a piece of corn in their meal.

      (Though disclaimer, I’m not vegan)

  • Stern@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    21
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    9 months ago

    You tend to get two groups who dislike it. Ignorant folks who think something like no animal stuff means no protein means you shrivel up and die, and the ones who’ve encountered a few too many militants in their time and ain’t interested or are downright sick of their schtick. Vaguely similar to atheism, except replace the animal product stuff with something religion related, ofc.

    • riplin@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      13
      arrow-down
      17
      ·
      9 months ago

      Except you don’t see atheists throwing a tantrum. So not like atheism at all.

      • Stern@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        35
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        9 months ago

        if you think internet atheists can’t be just as obnoxious as internet vegans you clearly haven’t been around enough of them.

        • ninpnin@sopuli.xyz
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          9 months ago

          The common denominator is the internet part though. The last obnoxious atheist I saw was 14, and I have yet to see an obnoxious vegan IRL

        • snooggums@midwest.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          9 months ago

          To be pendantic, the vocal atheists are more specifically antitheists as in they are opposed to theism, not just someone who doesn’t believe.

            • riplin@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              9 months ago

              That’s your example? A sub being the default on Reddit? That’s equal to protests in the streets by vegans to you?

                • riplin@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  9 months ago

                  Atheists highlighting religious atrocities is very annoying, yes. Imagine just doing you thing, raping kids and murdering people for not believing in your religion and someone posting on Reddit about it. So annoying!

              • TORFdot0@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                9 months ago

                As an example of internet atheists being as obnoxious as internet vegans, yes that’s my example.

                Edit: with regards to the content it was posting back when it was a default, not the fact that it was a default

      • Mastengwe@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        That’s ALL they do. I say this as an atheist that avoids atheism on the internet like it’s a disease.

      • Behole@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        9 months ago

        Get real. Every single group that lives outside the heteronormative, christian nationalist banner has fit-throwers. Saying that there aren’t those atheists but certainly are those vegans is as dumb as any other half-baked argument out there.

            • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              It’s a form of targeted religious fairness testing for sure, but I wouldn’t call TST a protest org. Nobody really stands outside and holds a banner as much as just filing lawsuits.

              • meteokr@community.adiquaints.moe
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                9 months ago

                What is the difference between “religious fairness testing” and protesting? Is a protest not just an active resistance to the current legal status quo? How is a lawsuit not a protest?

                • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  9 months ago

                  I guess it depends on your active definition. Sure those are protest actions I guess, but contextually speaking I would understand “a protest” to be a gathering of people with signs or a message at a place of business, courthouse, or similar.

                  At the intersection of religion and protest I’m in visioning WBC not TST.

            • riplin@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              I wouldn’t call them highlighting the hypocrisy of Christians the same as protesting out in the streets. The satanic temple is reactionary.

              • Behole@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                9 months ago

                You know if you do the same for “atheists protest” tons of shit pops up too. Even ones without Megan Kelly. You position is so flimsy and yet you still are digging in. You are a reply away from “do your own research”. Embattled ideology always comes with protest. The absolute unmitigated smugness that one group of people are more annoying than another based on their ideology is problematic at best and at worst, you are a pube away from wearing a red hat and diapers.

          • snooggums@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            Opposition to religious monuments on public grounds. They are low key and the only violence, vandalism, or public disturbances come from religious folks.

        • trxxruraxvr@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          9 months ago

          You make it sounds like the heteronormative, christian nationalist s don’t throw fits all the time.

          • Behole@lemmy.ml
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            9 months ago

            How do I make it sound like that? All they do is cry and moan! They are the absolute worst of the fit-throwers. But way to dig deep into my comment for a complete nothing burger.

  • Ogmios@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    16
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    9 months ago

    Because the only way most people interact with vegans is through activists using it as a bludgeon to project hate towards them.

    • Carrolade@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      9 months ago

      That’s only true in select places. Most people in one place can have different experiences from most people in a different place, due to the places being different environments with different populations.

      The majority of the internet is definitely among the places you’ve described, though.

      Source: I’ve lived in both types.

      • BearOfaTime@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        10
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        How do you know someone’s a vegan?

        Don’t worry, they’ll tell you.

        Same with any evangelical.

        • Carrolade@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          9 months ago

          That’s just incorrect. It’s pretty common not to find out until you’re talking about what to eat. I would imagine you’ve met vegans that you simply don’t know are vegan yet.

          • xtr0n@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            9 months ago

            There are enough vegans who absolutely discuss their diet immediately to keep the joke alive. Given how difficult and isolating it can be in many places, I get how it can become really core to one’s identity.

            • Carrolade@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              1
              ·
              9 months ago

              Very fair. My core point remains that it’s all about that

              in many places

              though. If you live in a region with more than a handful of vegans, you find very differently. It’s a personal pet peeve of mine when people try to paint their own experiences as “most people”, and all of any group as being just like those members they have met and are thinking about. It completely ignores several distinct internal mental biases, that are themselves making our world shittier because they lead to inaccurate conclusions, and are fairly natural unless you’ve received training to be made aware of them.

              Statistical selection bias, confirmation bias, etc.

              Because of this, it’s less a joke to me, and more just a pain in the ass. And I’m a happy carnivore that also does not like being preached to.

  • The Picard Maneuver@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    15
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    9 months ago

    People like to characterize those they already want to disagree with by the worst, most extreme examples of the group. So before even considering the benefits/drawbacks of veganism, people have already chosen their position after thinking “vegans are just so preachy and annoying”.

    It’s putting outrage before reason, and it’s really common in social media and news:

    • Think about how Fox News viewers picture liberals as the least coherent, unreasonable individuals that they see get interviewed, when in reality most are just normal people.

    • Or the reverse: how people in liberal circles might see conservatives depicted as Maga-hat wearing weirdos who think 5G is killing them.

    • Same with how many religious people evaluate atheism or atheists think of religion by their worst representatives.

    In short, I think the answer is that it’s a symptom of tribalism and identity-politics.

  • SatansMaggotyCumFart@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    12
    arrow-down
    1
    ·
    9 months ago

    There’s a ton of vegans who exist without trying to force their way of life on everyone, but the ones who do dominate the conversation and can be off putting.

    • metallic_substance@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      9 months ago

      Just like with everything else that people make into a lifestyle or part of their identity. Most are cool, but there’s always a vocal minority of dillweeds that take it way too seriously or use it to judge others that aren’t part of their pack.

      • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        9 months ago

        I’m not trying to be combative with this but want you to consider something. If you see the cruelty of factory farms and decide that its unethical to be killing and torturing animals in that way, but nobody else around you seems to care, would that not be a little upsetting? What does it mean to be taking it ‘too seriously’?

  • FancyManacles@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    7
    ·
    9 months ago

    Because the idea that there are vegans and vegetarians is an implied accusation of guilt to people that eat meat and animal products that are the direct result of animal suffering. Some people that don’t eat animal products might be militant or preachy, but I’ve never met one. In fact I have only ever met the inverse, people that constantly berate people for being vegan or vegetarian. Having been one myself, I can say that for me and people I know it is the same reason religious people hate atheists; their existence implies that people that eat meat are wrong and therefore bad people. Studies have confirmed this. Here is an article from the BBC that goes over some of the studies.

  • livus@kbin.social
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    11
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    9 months ago

    Well it’s like the old joke says,

    Q: how do you know someone’s a vegan?

    A: OH, THEY’LL TELL YOU.

    Seriously tho I don’t have a problem with them unless they start saying there’s no difference betwern killing an animal and torturing it.

  • Garbanzo@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    6
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    9 months ago

    No one likes being criticized and labeled a monster by an ignorant prick. They way to frequently act like every egg comes from a half zombie chicken that’s kept in a little box and tortured just for fun, or that a cow couldn’t possibly end up in a cheeseburger after living its best life. Factory farming is bad for lots of reasons, but it’s not characteristic of the entire industry.

    • Inui [comrade/them]@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      9 months ago

      What percentage of meat and dairy comes from non-factory farms and how many people are actually buying from those places? If factory farms produce something like 95% of the meat sold, can we then call it characteristic of the industry?

      • NoIWontPickAName@kbin.earth
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        9 months ago

        I can go in my fridge right now and pull fresh farm eggs and meat.

        Local animals that are treated wonderfully until they’re killed, and even then it’s a cleaner and better death than most of us will end up having.

        Whole life spent living in an open field, have a barn to go in when it rains, free food, now that I think of it these animals have a better life than most people I know.

        By god, that’s horrible to realize.

        We really need to focus on bringing down factory farms and cities.

        They both treat their subjects the same fucking way and we just let it happen.

        No smarter than the fucking cows, we all just need to spread out into towns and villages.

        Bring back manufacturing jobs, 1 factory per town could probably support the local economy, all the secondary places like gas stations, restaurants, barbers, grocery stores, bars, etc…

        Plus once we all spread out all the towns would have a little bit of everything from the cities and maybe I could finally get a good Italian joint around here.

        My choices are imo’s and the little pretentious place downtown that college kids parents go to when they are in town.

        I may be a little extra myself though, I’m moving to a town of 400 a few miles away because I think the town of 20,000 people is way too crowded.

        So YMMV I guess