Like the title says, are there any EVs that just have a Bluetooth radio and that’s it? Like a normal car, not a smartphone on wheels? If not, do you all think that this will actually happen at some point? This is the main reason why I can’t (and will never) buy an EV. I like to have actual buttons everywhere on my car. I think those massive tablets on these cars with all the touch buttons are very dangerous. I like an “entertainment system” that only connects to my phone with either a headphone jack of or Bluetooth. It’s a car, not a PC.
Just get a Detroit Electric Model 82.
Man, I love this. It’s so cute.
Check out the Skoda CitiGo. 36.4kWh of small car goodness without any screens or updates. Just Bluetooth. Navigation is provided using your phone in the factory mount or a TomTom. It’s basically a scaled down e-Up with analog switches.
Or the Seat Mii Electric, it’s even slightly more bare bones than the Citigo-e. Basically the VW group decided that instead of one car with three trim levels, they spread them under three different badges.
Though the dashboard is basically identical in each one (even the e-up) and what’s missing are parking sensors, cruise control, steering wheel buttons and stuff like that, so all of them fit the “not a smartphone on wheels” requirement.
My MY21 Hyundai Kona feels like a normal car without all those extra features. Lots of tactile buttons, there’s a headphone jack/USB. It’s really just a regular car with an EV engine.
That’s freaking awesome. I’ll check it out. I don’t really need a car now, but just wondering if we will turn into 100% smartphones on wheels
I hope so at some point. Drove a friend’s tesla and fuck that thing, even the speedometer was on the fucking center tablet… Fuckin why? I don’t want to hunt for my current speed in the bloated infotainment bs.
Preech. It’s literally a tablet on wheels and it sucks
I assumed from your title that you, like myself, are more concerned about the fact that EVs all seem to be “smart”, and cloud connected, and effectively hardware as a service to spy on you, and prevent repairs, and have software lockouts of features.
Like TVs, I think there’s no incentive for the companies with the ability to make dumb devices to actually make them. Adding all this functionality is unfortunately what people expect.
all seem to be “smart”, and cloud connected, and effectively hardware as a service to spy on you, and prevent repairs, and have software lockouts of
This is happening with gas cars too. I was driving an Infiniti rental car and every time I started it, the infotainment system showed a disclaimer about Infiniti collecting and using data. There was a way of opting out of just some of the data collection, but no way of opting out of all of it.
How does it connect to the Internet if you never connect your phone to it? Do they have their own network?
Yes, most cars have had their own data connection for a while now. If I know correctly, it’s a requirement for Europe since you have to put that button to call emergency services in the car, so it has to have a GSM module, so effectively it has to have mobile data.
So, forced data collection. Wow
Well technically GDPR applies, but who knows if any cars are actually compliant.
I know of a story where a judge actually said that car makers are within their rights to collect your data as long as there is no harm done. Loius Rossmann made a video about it
On one side, what the fuck, that’s not how it’s supposed to work. On the other side, at least precedent doesn’t mean much in the EU.
FWIW the EU’s eCall system doesn’t actually require a GSM module in the car; it’s enough to use a phone connected to the Bluetooth handsfree kit… That said, since most manufacturers already have the module for data-harvesting anyway it’s kind of moot.
On star is one of those networks. There should be info in the owners manual on which fuse it goes to so you can pull it and disable it.
That’s actually good to know. Thank you
That and safety and I genuinely don’t care for bells and whistles, as they add to the cost unnecessarily. Whenever I needed a new car, I never bought new, I always bought second hand and made sure it’s the “lowest trim” of the model. So much cheaper for the same car. I come from a 3rd world country and am used to cars that just drive with no other purposes. So, why not save my money and also be safe, you know?
Yeah, historically that’s how it worked, fewer features meant less money. The difficult part today is, the cheapest products are being subsidized with these “smart” features. For cars, as well as most other products, they are able to charge less because they can harvest your data, or lock you into their repair shops, or show you ads. We’re now at the point where it costs more to have a bare bones device, and it’s cheaper to sell your soul to the company.
And unfortunately, buying second hand doesn’t get you out of it. Just like how digital purchases can’t be re-sold or traded, “smart” cars can be remotely locked down if they determine it’s been resold.
This twitter post used to be a story of a person who resold a tesla, only to have Tesla remotely downgrade the battery capacity because they determined they made a mistake when servicing a previous owner.
Are they’re any evs built with OpenSource in mind? Like its honestly cool that you can more closely control how they drive because it electronically controlled but tech enshitification makes most the stuff I’ve seen always tainted by it.
Tesla is built on top of Ubuntu with their own closed source spin. But yeah, that would be amazing if we had a completely FOSS system on some cars. I’d be willing to pay extra for it. Fuck, man. Shit is getting out of hands.
Wait, they’re closed-sourcing Ubuntu? Doesn’t the GPL say that any fork or derivative of any GPL’d product has to have the GPL? It’s supposed to propagate.
They were until they got in trouble a couple of years back for not contributing shit back. I think they have an “android” approach where they have their own shit running on top of Ubuntu now.
That explains… some
Open source is good for distributed projects. But because of economies of scale, remotely economical car manufacturing will always be centralized. That power gradient would make open source very difficult.
I guess I see potential as systems become more digital that they have more potential to be interchangeable. Kind like how computers hardware is.
I don’t know actually. I’m sure there are open attempts to convert cars to electric. But if you mean something like level 1-3 autonomy, I would assume it would have to be approved by a regulating body, and I don’t think any open projects would have seeked that level of approval yet. It’s one thing for someone to root their phone and their camera doesn’t work, it’s another if they root their car and cause an accident.
It’s not a full car or even entertainment system, but comma.ai is an opensource autonomous driving software. Last time I looked into this was a few years ago, but basically for most newer cars you can rip out the adaptive cruise control, and effevtively replace it with autonomous driving. Either powered by certain supported phones or dedicated hardware.
Comma is super exciting for the driving assistance parts!
You can use smart tvs as dumb screens though, just don’t connect it to internet. Is there a similar way for Evs?
The problem with smart TVs is they’re just straight up worse than dumb TVs, even when not connected. Old school TVs turn on and start showing you TV in a few seconds. Smart TVs take tens of seconds every time you try to turn them on.
Some tvs require you to connect to the internet to set up I believe. Cars have their own built in connection, (such as OnStar)so you can’t avoid connecting them in the first place since they come connected from the factory.
Not that I know of. Let smaller automakers make EVs and we might get something like that.
But with the federal government mandating that all cars must have automatic braking after a certain date in the future I guess we’re never going to get away from tons of sensors and computers in cars.
Automatic braking doesn’t require the level of tech that’s being packed into EVs these days
You could make automatic breaking without a full blown computer, but it’s so much cheaper to put a full-blown computer than it is to do it all in hardware. Everything uses turing complete equipment now, it’s actually less expensive at this point.
There’s absolutely no reason not to put multiple computers in the car I think the real win is not surfacing it to the end user.
“Tech” is a conflated term. The way I read OP is that they don’t want their cars main user interface to be a smartphone app. Doesn’t mean the car can’t be technologically advanced.
Exactly. If my car can connect to the internet then it has too much tech in it.
The ability for a car to call emergency services in the event of a crash, and thus the mobile / data connection required to do that, has been mandatory since 2018 in all new cars sold in the EU.
So there is no cost incentive not to have the internet connection in there, as it is a basic safety feature now, like seatbelts.
You don’t need a data plan to call emergency services. Any protocol-compatible device can dial 911/112/etc. for free.
This is why in remote areas your phone may say “Emergency Calls Only”. Your carrier isn’t available, but someone else’s is and they are legally obligated to route emergency calls.
Of course if your car has a modem and a computer, adding a data plan isn’t a huge leap. But it’s a recurring expense and plenty of cars sold today do not have internet connectivity, at least on the cheaper side.
I mean, the government has mandated that all cars built since the 90s have to have a lot of computers and sensors for engine monitoring and emissions logging so that ship has long since sailed. Automatic braking is also credited with eliminating something like 1 in 5 fatalities in car accidents, so as long as we have any motorized vehicles around at all I don’t really have a problem with the government requiring manufacturers to spend the extra 20 dollars or so per vehicle it costs them to add a few ultrasonic sensors and a microcontroller it takes to slow the vehicle to the point where a driving into a pedestrian might just be survivable.
They also mandate a backup camera, so that means they need to have a screen.
eBikes
While an amazing option for city commutes, mine is close to 100km daily. I have no idea if it’s possible to use an e-bike for that, but it would certainly take up even more of my limited free time to do so.
That’s pretty extreme commute, a deeply unsustainable one regardless of the type of power system in your car.
Yup, it is. Unfortunately, I had to endure that for close to a year (I will be assigned somewhere else this summer) and me and my colleagues had to carpool. Public transport would have been the best, but for that route the bus only goes twice a day.
Nevertheless, e-bikes are great if your commute isn’t that long!
So, you want them to sell their house now? Lol
Probably not available where you are but there are lots of Chinese options that are exactly this.
Any examples? I live in China and even the worst shoebox on wheels has a touch screen and built-in always online capabilities.
Some names would be appreciated
If your hate only goes towards touchscreens and not having physical buttons, Mazda is (or at least was) very anti-touchscreen. I haven’t done any research on their current stance or if they have good EVs, but a neighbor of mine was really happy with his Mazda ICE car for having a button for everything.
2024 Mazdas have touchscreens, so much for that analog vision of theirs. And they have just as much telematics and always-connected privacy-invading tech as other makes.
I have a Mazda (not an EV) and am loyal to the brand because of their dial system. The dial makes it so easy to navigate menus without taking my eyes off the road for long
How Are mazdas? I’ve never even ridden in one, believe it or not. Tell me more, I’m interested. Lol
I have the 2021 Mazda3 Hatchback Premium Plus, so I have all the options (the COVID used car prices were great for when my previous one got totaled, the insurance company really paid out). It was brand new when I bought it. I have very few issues with it.
It’s quick, fun to drive, and feels really premium for not being priced insanely. I personally think it’s comfortable, but if you’re looking for more space, it’s probably not the way to go. For example, the front seats aren’t very usable with a rear-facing car seat in the back. The trunk space is pretty good imo. But I hate large cars in the first place.
I don’t use Android Auto or CarPlay because I enjoy the ease of use of the built-in system. The control scheme uses a dial between the seats where your arm rests, so it’s really easy to keep a hand on the wheel and navigate menus with it. There are also some quick buttons and a volume knob. The software could use a little work because sometimes album art doesn’t show up, but that’s mostly been fixed by changing Bluetooth settings on my phone. I truly don’t think there’s a better way to build a car control system.
I can’t speak on reliability of my own car, but my mom had a CX-5 and it seemed to last a good while without maintenance issues. I’ve personally had no problems so far. I’ve had good luck with Mazda dealership service too and I’ll probably stick with getting maintenance from them just so I can be sure someone who knows how those cars are built is working on it.
If Mazda comes out with an EV that has decent range and doesn’t utilize a touchscreen, I’d for sure get like, the 3rd or 4th generation of it (because 1st and 2nd Gen anything can suck.
That’s awesome. Never knew that about Mazda.
2024 has touchscreens now
I’ve owned nine cars, and the two Mazdas were my favorite. a 1999 Mazda 626 5 speed, and then the 2013 Mazda 3. I’ve been driving a 2022 Sentra for a couple years and the Mazda was better. I needed to upgrade to get Android auto and the safety features, but I wish I had upgraded to another Mazda
Hmmmm, y’all are making me like Mazda. Lol. Anyone likes Mitsubishi around here? Haha
Digging my Mirage. Low-key cheap, simple display that integrates well w/ phone, and 40+ MPG.
Also easy to paddle shift into “oh fuck” mode, which burns more gas but gets me out of some hairy situations when AC is running.
Would prefer a hybrid, but this is the car the numbers worked out on in a sane way. I tried hypermiling in a Prius 1G (99, I think) on both a KY parkway and I24, and it sorta worked but was a huge PITA as well. Context, US 41 thru Evansville, Parkway, 24. Not terrible for the time at all, but a bit stressful here and there.
their old SUVs were a lot of fun
You should probably mention your jurisdiction ,but I’m in EU and have a Dacia , pretty goood lack of stupid/unnecessary features and the console is mostly optional to use. Physical buttons for important stuff and music/calls. Mine is a LPG/gasoline hybrid but most is similar to the EV models.
Least bad in Mozillas privacy review as well. Plenty of electronics still ofc it is needed in any car today EV or not.
I mean, gasoline-powered cars are headed the same way. manufacturers realize they can make more money by forcing us to pay for software.
I know that Edison motors up in Canada makes conversion kits so you can turn your pickup truck or 18 wheeler into a hybrid. I’m sure there are people out there putting electric motors in regular cars, I’ve seen them do it with Porsches and mustangs
The entertainment system in most cars are separate from the actual car computer. You can just turn it off, or only use the radio. I think it’s only Tesla where it’s necessary to use the screen in order to operate the car.
EVs however is one place where it makes some sense to have some software connection to the car, if you want to time the charging to the electricity price or set a tine to preheat and such, that’d be difficult to make with physical buttons. I’d prefer just to have an simple app for it, because I really dislike the proprietary software in the cars.
You only need the screen to operate a Tesla on any model without stalks.
I’ve never tried to open the frunk with voice commands, but it probably works.
I want to talk to my car even less than I want to operate a touch screen.
If you have an old truck, Edison Motors has preorders for the Pickup Truck conversions. The kit will only have the drive train stuff in it and anything else is not something they’re interested in. They are working with autoshops to do the conversions, so it’s not a DIY thing.
Nice. I don’t have a truck, I was just wondering in case I want to replace my car in the future.
Well, another thing that’s nice about Edison Motors is that they’re the Engineers, Mechanics and End Users for the kits. It all started because they wanted a Tesla Semi Truck to try for their logging company, but got snubbed by Tesla. It should have much higher usability then a truck designed by someone who’s never driven a truck before.
This isn’t like a Prius where the Engine, Electric Motor and Tires are all connected mechanically at some point. The Diesel/Generator unit is only connected to the E-Axle via electrician power. Because the company supported open standards and open documentation, you could just get the e-axle, ESC, and battery pack and build a pure EV around it. They need to focus on a simple product line with the broadest use cases for starting though, so I’m not surprised they aren’t talking about pure EV trucks.
There’s also strong community and wealth of information on swapping EV guts into older cars. You get the benefits of EV without the spyware and info-distractions. These are all custom jobs though, so a cost estimate is impossible. Deboss has a very interesting EV project going on right now. Edison says the total cost of their kits should be around 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of a new truck
I have an old Scottsdale truck I’m eyeing for a Edison conversion. The juxtaposition of a modern diesel/EV hybrid drive train combined with an 80’s square body truck with manual crank windows it too irresistible. All running on biodiesel as well.
So let’s be very clear here. This is basically true for any new car, practically no ‘normal car’ has come out (in the US) for the past few years. The amount of feature creep has been massive, some due to regulations, some because adding it is cheap. The only place where you can get relatively bare bones is in pick ups. Not in suv’s. Cars except sportscars are no longer being offered, only two ‘normal’ models (accord and camry) still exist. These all have driver assist tech and large screens as well. You won’t be able to get around features hiding behind touch screens, simply impossible to find in today’s market.
The problem for Evs is that beyond styling the only differentiating factor is tech. They are all fast and differ not that much in range, speed, comfort, handling in their price ranges. This has pushed tech into the car industry, especially in the US where people are willing to go into debt for cars, to the point where the average price for a new car is 47k. Compared to eu: 27k
In principle, the less you pay the less tech you get. But for any new car, there is tech. No way around it anymore. You can buy the car and ignore it.
I think we need a car that “weeds out” all the shitty tech that has been integrated and comes “standard” now.
Let’s take my partner’s 2021 Honda Civic for example.
Lane Keep Assist (LKAS) - it’s garbage. The car does not recognize construction zones, and it will actively fight you if you are in those zones, or if you have to make an emergency lane change without signaling, like if a deer, or child runs in front of your car. We turned this feature off.
Collision Mitigation Braking System (CMBS) - This system legit tries to wreck the car. We’ve had it flag and even slam the brakes dozens of times in non-emergency scenarios. It was so bad we took it back to the dealer to have the software updated (which changed nothing) and considered returning the car. The system has to be manually disabled every time we drive the car, we cannot permanently disable it. Slamming your brakes at highway speeds when someone makes a close merge is a real good way to wreck your car and the 6 or so behind you. The risk of causing 12+ accidents to avoid or mitigate 0 is not worthwhile, and it needs to go.
Adaptive Cruise Control - A great way to make idiots fall asleep, and causes left lane lollygagging. I tried using adaptive cruise control for a few long trips, and what I noticed is that there are long lines of cars driving 4 under where they are all using ACC. When the car automatically adjusts it’s speed, you lose feedback on the speed you are actually going, because you never get into that “decision zone” behind a car where you either slow down, or pass the other car. It also makes people feel more confident to let the car drive, so they’ll fuck around on their phones. Get rid of it, you’ll get where you’re going faster and safer if you do.
Auto Dimming Headlights - Turns on by accident all the time, and very hard to turn off. Works ~50% of the time. Could be good, but really sucks right now.
Here are some features that rock, and should stay in.
Keyless entry
Remote start and push button start
Apple / Android phone integration
Brake hold
Backup camera
Thanks for attending my rant.
Oh man, I love adaptive cruise control. I also don’t agree that using it in the left lane is bad. If there’s a line of cars going too slowly, the person in front is the asshole, not the three using ACC behind them. You really shouldn’t pass on the right anyway, would definitely not call doing that driving safer.
Everybody in the line is part of the problem. If you aren’t passing, move right. You should be checking every 30 seconds or so. Am I passing or going to pass someone in the next minute? No? Move right. Only times I’d consider an exception is if there was an on-ramp lane merging down, or an exit ramp coming up, or if you need the left lane for a turn (and you better have your fucking signal on)
If you get passed on the right, and there is no room to your left, you’ve created a dangerous situation and you need to move fucking right ASAP.
That was actually an awesome rant. Enshitification is rampant
I got one as a loaner last year and agree on everything except the backup cameras, those are completely unnecessary too. I hated that car. Was happy to get my 2012 model back.
I wasn’t big on the backup camera at first, but having it in conjunction with a mirror really helps when parking in tight spaces, or backing out of a parking space. I use it probably 95% of the time when backing up.
Also, it doesn’t really hurt anything to have the backup cam if you’ve already got an infotainment system in the car. You’re not losing or compromising anything to have it, and it’s not going to affect your operation of the vehicle if it turns on unintentionally.
I don’t want the infotainment system either. Cars shouldn’t have that much electronic bullshit in them. Every one I’ve seen has been trash. At most it should have a dock for your phone and let that be your infotainment system.
That’s basically what Apple carplay and Android Auto do. However, it’s nice to have independent audio settings (like fader, EQ, and balance) for the car. Big ol’ GPS/map is nice too. Bluetooth controls for multiple devices. Fuel Economy and car management applications, radio… All things that I enjoy in the car that a simple phone dock would not replicate.
It could. It would just require a more robust app. You could use a tablet instead of a phone if you wanted a bigger or dedicated screen.
I manage my audio and GPS from my phone just fine. No integration with the car necessary besides an aux jack. The dash shows the fuel economy next to the speedometer. Everything else (clock, radio, maintenance due, etc) is managed through the menu buttons (physical buttons, not a garbage touchscreen) on the steering wheel.
