Unpopular opinion: if you require disenfranchised voters to stave off a fascist dictatorship then you’re already a failed state and are only kicking the can down the road.
You’re not wrong. I guess the question is now whether you’re ok with the consequences of not kicking it?
The don’t think that far ahead.
Pithy comments that undermine their own stated aims are their entire contribution to the human experience.
They’ll have plenty of opportunities for pithy comments when Trump helps eradicate Palestine and Ukraine while tailoring the US for straight, rich, white, Christian Americans.
There are probably a lot of people you love who require healthcare who are depending on that can being kicked further down the road until you have an alternative.
I personally think we can support Palestine without throwing our trans and gay populations, our immigrants, and our leftists to the wolves.
That’s the thing. We aren’t getting an alternative. We’re getting fascism. Whether we slowly slide into it with the Democrats or speed run it with the Republicans we will have to deal with the issue.
What are you doing to deal with it?
Protest, work to get other people elected.
If you think Trump is going to save a single Palestinian, I hope you succeed in getting him elected.
We just won’t read about it any more.
“And the other thing is I hate, they put out tapes all the time. Every night, they’re releasing tapes of a building falling down. They shouldn’t be releasing tapes like that. They’re doing, that’s why they’re losing the PR war. They, Israel is absolutely losing the PR war,” Trump said.
then make do with what you’ve got
No. This isn’t what we have, this is what the wealthy elite have. We’re not making do, we’re drowning. We’ve been drowning. But everyone ignored the warnings so here we are.
humans have been making do with much less than what you have for hundreds of thousands of years. making do also does not necessarily exclude political action
That’s right up there with, “better clean that plate, there’s starving kids in China!”
It’s that very history you mention that tells me it’s time to stop supporting weak Democrats. Either we get someone strong enough to pull us back from the abyss or we’re already fucked. This story has played out time and again from the Roman Empire to Post Colonial Africa. The compromise guy is put in charge and the authoritarian runs him over.
And Trump will improve that how?
Oh he won’t. But neither will Biden.
Right. So maybe you should look at everything else they have done as president and realize there’s a lot more at stake in this election.
Honestly not sure the situation for immigrants is that much better under Biden. Especially with the immigration bill from earlier in the year they tried to pass and the It Could Happen Here episodes about the border conditions under Biden. At least during Trump’s term there were news reports and people were more active giving aid.
Really? Deporting adults and keeping their children in ICE detention centers only to physically and sexually abuse them is better? Trump was a monster to immigrants. We had nations around the world criticizing the crisis and crimes against humanity at our border.
https://www.aclu.org/news/immigrants-rights/ice-detention-center-says-its-not-responsible
I’m glad Biden ended family separation and has increased electronic monitoring over detention. Unfortunately, tons of people are still in abusive privately run immigration prisons. Many are dying during border crossings. Plenty of kids who immigrated are laboring in meat packing plants.
Biden continues many of Trump’s awful policies, but because he does it in a quieter, more respectable tone he receives less backlash. The lack of support people get from us is stark and the abolish ICE movement has withering away.
Both these situations are bad. I think my point is less about the election and more that we collectively should do something about these conditions. Mutual aid, volunteer, harass a representative, just something.
You’re forgetting about the year and a half long open border policy after Biden repealed Title 42, while pressing Congress to do their job and enact immigration reform. The only reason he restricted immigration was after receiving pressure from sanctuary cities. The president shouldn’t be enacting Executive Orders to control the border. That is a direct result of the failure of Congress.
Here’s a take… it would be infinitely worse under the GOP. At least Biden and Blinken have attempted to cool tensions and persuade Bibi to stop. They have, at a minimum, delayed some violence.
The argument isn’t “don’t vote for biden” it’s “stop deflecting the harm your candidate is actively doing by pointing at someone else”. Why is that so hard to understand? The fact the democrats want to die on the hill of commiting genocide and squashing student protests against it is their own fault, no one elses.
This isn’t an election issue, since both parties agree on support for Israel. Stop making it an election issue
This is a Congress issue, go protest at the house, or offices of your congressman.
It’s an election issue if the people say it is. Otherwise we no longer live in a democracy.
Enjoy president Trump. See how he handles Palestine.
Enjoy president Trump
So you admit that it is an election issue?
No, they’re replying to the claim that it is. If you attempt to protest the genocide at the polls, you’ll just end up with more genocide.
Right, so Bidens continued support of genocide makes it more likely that Trump will win
Therefore it is an election issue. Therefore, Biden needs to immediately change policy
Enjoy engaging people in bad faith arguments.
Maga assholes are having a grand time twisting the knife in this wound trying to drive a wedge in the voting block. It’s clearly working.
The people who are drawing the line at genocide in Gaza are being disingenuous at best. Foreign policy is, believe it or not, far more complicated than people make it out to seem. Making every effort to de-escalate the conflict at the negotiating table comes before burning bridges with arguably our last and only stalwart ally in the middle east.
Sending Israel weapons doesn’t look like a descalation strategy.
There were agreements already in place, and not sending at least some of those weapons was not an option.
That’s just pure bullshit. Under the Leahy amendment they’re not even allowed to send weapons to countries credibly accused of human rights abuses, and the state department’s just sitting on those reports instead of following the law.
You could literally impeach the President over this, but obviously the majority of Congress is ok with the president breaking that law.
You could literally impeach the President over this
You’re telling me that the Republicans who have been grasping at straws for four years to come up with an excuse to impeach Biden are letting this impeachable offense pass them by? Sorry, but I don’t believe you.
Republicans are overwhelmingly Zionists who would never criticize a Democrat for supporting Israel. If anything, they would impeach Biden for not sending Israel enough bombs and guns to use to murder innocent Gazans
Gee, sounds like we should really do everything we can do keep these Republicans out of office then.
They’re right. The weapons agreement was already in place and paid for by Israel prior to any criminal accusations by the ICC. The subsequent aid was unnecessary, but it was the only leverage to get the Republicans in Congress to pass Ukraine aid.
Not sending weapons to a genocidal regime is not complicated.
Why do you need an ally in the Middle East? America’s not in the Middle East right?
That’s the “complicated foreign policy” that OP is taking about. There are a ton of reasons to have allies all over the world, which surprisingly includes the Middle East. It could be for military, economic, informational, or other reasons.
Weird. Informational?
Sharing of information. They have info we don’t, and visa versa.
Information about what
Literally, anything. Information has value. Allies have information and share it with their allies.
The Empire must be everywhere
Why do we need to sally out and defeat the enemy? The enemy isn’t inside the castle walls, right?
Are you really so naive that you can’t see value in making alliances with countries that don’t directly border your own?
Wait, who is your enemy?
Whoever Netanyahu wants dead, of course.
Does causing unnecessary conflict create pleasure for you? It’s a pretty terrible character flaw. You should take a look at that.
Biden is funding a genocide that’s a red line for people who oppose genocides
True… but I think we would have had more representation, as democrats would try to score political points.
It would have felt like we had some representation fighting against this, rather then 2 parties agreeing on a genocide.
You’re getting all the representation you can get from Senate and House Democrats. Schumer spoke against this in January. Bernie repeated last month, and so on. Congress is now divided on this as a partisan issue, but ignorance puts it all on the president, whose office has been in support of Israel in this conflict since it began under Reagan. A Republican in office would only escalate this into a war with Iran after Palestine is eradicated.
Democrats are speaking out though?
Yeah, they’re speaking out against the protests. Biden even got in on it with his short speech recently finger wagging the student protests, in case you were wondering how much democrats care about acting against genocide.
Would you rather he ask about shooting the protestors?
Everyone knows trump is worse. The answer to hitler is not hitler-lite.
What is the answer? People are commenting like they can just abstain and everything will work out. I’m commenting as an anti-Trump voter. Provide a suggestion that isn’t whining about bad choices and I’ll listen.
He called out elements of the student protest movement, not the movement as a whole.
Maybe if we policed the most unhelpful and destructive elements of the movement for ourselves, we wouldn’t be in this situation.
He talked about these elements as if they were the entirety of the movement. It doesn’t matter how much you police the movement, any jackass can make the movement look bad with the help of biden and the media pretending like they represent the movement.
The Columbia divestment spokesperson said they had no involvement with the group which took over Hamlin Hall, but stood in solidarity with them.
When the movement as a whole stands in solidarity with those who are weakening the movement, maybe Biden has a point.
Biden is arming and funding a genocide
He has no moral credibility and neither does the Democratic Party
And getting called trump supporting russians when we do.
I believe they’re talking about Democrat electors, like Schumer and Bernie. No one here is against speaking out or protesting. The topic is voting. If people abstain, Trump will win. His unwavering base will make sure of that.
Also, you said you’re not a democrat. Which is it? Or do you just manipulate your stance to fit the narrative you’re selling?
Also, you said you’re not a democrat.
Oh cool. Where did I say that?
Is it in the same chunk of your imagination where you assume I support trump because I don’t love genocide like you do?
I thought you had written that you left the party years ago. My mistake. Also, accusing people of loving genocide is despicable and further discrediting to you. Of course I’m passionately against killing of any kind, especially when targeting a specific group.
I’m not defending Biden’s support of Israel. This post is about voting, and yes, I’m absolutely reluctantly voting for him to keep Trump from a second term. You are either completely ignorant to the implications of your comments or you are actively trying to get Trump into office.
Democrats are speaking out
Actually, Democrats are funding and arming a genocide against Gazans
Find a list of people in Congress who have spoken out. What do they all have in common?
That they have not influenced policy on this issue at all and that they will be shortly electorally defeated by AIPAC endorsed candidates?
They have, at a minimum, delayed some violence.
Also at a maximum.
We don’t really know how much worse this would be without US pressure
What pressure?
Wow. This comment says a lot about your media diet
or yours and like actually answer the question:
What pressure?
Persuade Netanyahu to stop by sending him weapons unconditionally and vetoing ceasefire at the UN?
That anyone would use Trump’s non-theoretical fascism to goad a vote for Biden is offensive. These are the stakes and Biden still won’t listen. That’s on him.
No, that is one of the stakes. Single-issue voting is extremely narrow-minded, and Trump would undoubtedly make things worse in the single issue you’re emphasizing.
And yet single issue voters exist. Pretending they don’t isn’t going to work. Scolding them isn’t going to work. The Democratic party and Biden in particular need to adapt.
So you’d rather destroy American and Ukrainian lives as well as Palestinian to prove a point?
They sure would.
Would you prefer that Biden lose as long as he continues his support for genocide?
You sure would.
These people would prefer for Biden to lose, and I’m quite convinced that they don’t really care why or how. Genocide is the buzzword of the year, but if Israel and Gaza make peace tomorrow, all of these people will all have new reasons why Democratic voters should stay home or burn their ballots.
So you’d rather support genocide and lose voters than not support genocide and gain voters?
Not a binary proposition. Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters. Diplomacy is hard. Politics is hard.
Part of the reason it’s hard in this particular situation is bad actors pretending that geopolitics can be reduced to a soundbyte and that the problem is simple and easy.
Think you can do better? Run for president.
Support Israel and lose voters, abandon Israel and lose more and different voters.
So just making sure I’ve got this right. When potential voters say, “This policy of enabling genocide is a deal-breaker for me, I won’t vote for you if you don’t change this stance,” they’re being naïve about the complexity of politics and the current situation in Palestine, if not actually just bad actors, but when other voters say “I won’t vote for you if you stop enabling genocide,” they’re playing 5d chess that us simpletons with morals just can’t keep up with, right? Because that’s basically what you’ve just wrote.
It’s always the left who are being unreasonable for refusing to compromise, but when center-right genocide sympathizers refuse to compromise on their stance, tough luck, kid, that’s just politics. The enlightened centrists here are shrieking about the end of democracy if you don’t fall in line with them, as all the while they happily march down the path to the end of democracy.
If Biden stops supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, will he lose your vote?
EDIT: disregard. You answered elsewhere before I noticed.
I was describing a phenomenon, not identifying myself as an example of that phenomenon. I’m voting for Biden.
So the kids are left with the following options: vote for Biden and genocide is permitted or let Trump win and even more genocide is permitted.
Faced with a shit sandwich, they chose an option that no one saw on the board: demand that the genocide end. I think that’s pretty rad, but maybe others don’t see it the same way. I admire the protesters.
I agree with protesting, just not at the polls. You would be choosing a worse fate for Palestinians, Ukrainians, and Americans in an attempt to make a point that won’t be made.
Don’t get me wrong; I’ll vote for genocidal-Joe, despite my extreme dislike of his policy toward Israel. I’m not stupid and neither are the kids. But the kids are still trying to force his hand and they should. I hope they vote for him too. But to threaten not to in an attempt to save Palestinian lives is a solid move. I hope they vote against fascism when the time comes. And I hope Brandon feels the pressure and changes his policy in the meantime.
I agree. Protest everywhere but the polls. The posted article, as well as the topic, is voting. That’s the only reason there’s such a disconnect in the comments.
I understand it’s a single issue but facilitating genocide seems like a big deal dontcha think?
Of course it is. It’s only going to get worse under Trump, as will everything else.
Is it so crazy to want an option that’s better than “not a total distopia”?
I wouldn’t say that under Biden, be are living in a “total distopia”.
I would, seeing as the president full-throatedly supporting genocide is seen as perfectly fine because other guy exists.
Genocide, deteriorating Capitalism, a lack of Democracy, and crumbling Imperialism aren’t total dystopia to you?
Must be nice to be privledged.
If that’s the only issue you’re voting on, do you want the guy that tries to stop it or the guy who says “go right ahead, do more genocide!”?
If that’s the only issue you’re voting on, do you want the guy that tries to stop it
That guy’s not running.
That is correct. The options at the polls for Palestinians are bad or worse. Better is just not on the table. All the more reason that protests should happen elsewhere.
Okay, then I guess those votes aren’t on the table either. Democrats have a tough choice to make: do they want to support genocide and lose votes or do they want to stop supporting genocide and gain votes? Why are voters being attacked for exercising their democratic right to vote (or not vote) as they please, but politicians whose entire job is to gain votes are excused for not appealing to voters?
Better is just not on the table.
Congratulations.
Biden has made attempts to stop things, even if they are half assed. So the question remains, which do you support?
Biden has made attempts to stop things, even if they are half assed.
They’re no-assed.
So the question remains, which do you support?
I’m voting for Biden.
Now I have a question for you. Is Netanyahu committing genocide?
Man don’t bother. These people aren’t against genocide. They all have no problem with Ukrainian genocide or any genocide the Chinese want to carry out.
deleted by creator
Biden, his administration, and the bulk of the Democratic Party deserve every bit of blowback that they are going to get from their racist, bloodthirsty, gaslighting-filled stance on Gaza. The immorality of it all is bad enough, but it’s also just politically stupid given how so much of the electorate feels. I am painfully aware of the existential threat to democracy that this election poses. For Democrats to gamble US democracy itself on their desire to fuel a genocide is unforgivable. If this godforsaken country actually elects trump, it will be entirely the result of Joe Biden and the sclerotic Democratic Party leadership. We deserve much better.
You do understand that if Biden came down hard that that would result in him losing votes from independents and that he’s doing what he can with an unwinnable situation…?
Why is all the pressure to compromise or accept bad candidates focused on the left? Why aren’t you encouraging the main stream Democrats and “independents” to agree to stop aiding Israel’s genocide to prevent Trump’s winning? Why is it only progressive or the left that are required to vote against their conscience to save democracy when the center could just as easily compromise to prevent fascism?
Cuz that’s how it’s always worked. The center’s never saved anyone in their lives from anything. That’s why they’re in the center. They don’t take a stand. They don’t fight for justice or equality or plurality. They’re in the center. They’re complacent. They’re easily steered. You can’t lead by never taking a stance in the first place. You can’t want to be led by somebody who’s never first.
That’s why they’re in the center. They don’t take a stand.
The center is taking a stand right now. In favor of genocide. I didn’t know they could, either. Guess they were just looking for a cause that they firmly believe in that excites them.
No they’re not. They’re not taking a stand at all. They’re just standing back and watching impassively like they always do.
Circumventing congress to sell Netanyahu weapons is not standing back and watching impassively.
Running interference for Netanyahu at the UN isn’t standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to not condition aid is not standing back and watching impassively.
Voting overwhelmingly to fund Israel while they are committing genocide is not standing back and watching impassively.
Claiming that those who oppose Netanyahu’s genocide have ties to Russia isn’t standing back and watching impassively.
Centrists have finally found an issue that they won’t immediately abandon at the very first sign of opposition.
That whistling sound you are hearing is the sound of the point you miss completely.
But why can’t I impose my own beliefs on people who have no beliefs!? It’s not fair!
Yeah of course it’s not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high. These people are beyond children and will lead our entire species to its end.
of course it’s not fair, but refusing to vote for the least bad available option is insanity when the stakes are this high
That is literally the only way to get politicians to support the policies and issues that you want them to. The only thing you have that they want is your vote, they only way you will move them on an issue is if you convince them they won’t get it otherwise.
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you…
If you think the pro-genocide orange man is going to care more about your desires than Biden, I have bad news for you…
Nobody thinks that, but he is not going to make it worse. Israel is running their pogrom at the exact speed they want, Biden, and therefore the US, are not doing anything to slow them down. He gives some minor admonishment and his staff leaks to the press the he is “frustrated with Netenyahu” as if that matters. They say they will sanction some of the illegal colonizers in the West Bank, but then a couple weeks later decide not to. We continue to give Israel bombs and missiles and any other help they need in their mass murder. We are building a pier in Gaza so we can get aid past the Israeli blockade but then Biden says it will be under the control of Israel, so it will not be any more effective than any other crossing. Netenyahu wants the war to continue as it is preventing his corruption charges and the longer he can continue the better chance he has of getting his judicial and government reform in place to further consolidate his power and eventually quash any chance he will be held to account. Forcing the Democrats to actually make policy and take action to resolve the apartheid in Palestine is the only potential path in our broken political system. If you are so concerned this is going to hand Trump victory then start pressuring the centrist Dems to enforce a ceasefire now. Gain the youth vote, gain the anti genocide vote.
It’s funny that his solution to this “unwinnable situation” is to support genocide. Just a woopsie by the old man I guess.
Just a woopsie by the old man I guess.
You’ve got the genocide excuser and the genocide enthusiast running… who do you choose for the least bad outcome?
This is our reality. None of us like it, but you’re being idiotic.
If you can excuse genocide, then go for it. But for many people it’s too much.
They didn’t say they are excusing the genocide. They said that the Democrats and their candidate are excusing the genocide, while the GOP and their candidate, are actively frothing at the mouth to speed it up.
Independents are not automatically centrists. They are simply people who don’t identify with either party. Chasing the mythological centrist voter is how we got here.
Edited because Auto Correct really doesn’t like independents?
If he stops supporting genocide, who will you vote for?
“If I’m talking about electric vehicles and climate change, and then (a student) asks me, ‘What about all the emissions caused by the bombing of Gaza?’ I’m like, well, you know, can’t help you there,”
Maybe you need a better answer than that?
The emissions that would continue or escalate with Trump in office? He’s worse for everyone except rich white industrialists.
Trump repealed 112 environmental regulations in one term, undoing over a decade’s worth of progress.
Biden just reenacted gender discrimination law that Obama created and Trump subsequently repealed.
SCOTUS repealed Affirmative Action, overturned Roe vs. Wade, and left protest law up to the states due to the heavily conservative appointments made by Trump.
Trump’s tax cuts expired for the low and middle classes in 2022, but the larger tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations continue through 2024. Biden’s tax proposal begins in 2025, with cuts for the low and middle class, and heavily increased taxes on the wealthy and corporations.
Russia will succeed in their invasion of Ukraine if the US fails to provide support, which is Trump’s position.
Trump also said the Israel’s biggest problem is recording their atrocities, and they should just finish what they started in Gaza.
I could go all day, but you get the point. Abstain or vote third-party if you’re looking to invite this back into the White House.
Agreed, any of those are better answers than, “Welp, ya got me there.”
Just trying to help out anyone else who can’t speak to the difference in the candidates.
Well that’s the most frustrating part of the campaign. Biden is making all of the same mistakes Hillary did when it comes to motivating the base and young people. It’s like watching your grandma try to check her email. What should be a simple thing turns into an exercise in patience, but if you try to help, she gets belligerent and acts like you can’t possibly know anything she doesn’t.
Biden is bad at articulating his message. That trickles down to his volunteers. There’s never been a more important election in our lifetimes, and Biden is making unforced errors.
Look at a few of his actions compared to Trump’s, then tell me you still believe that.
Are you sure you’ve read and understood what I wrote? Because yes, I still believe it, because none of that refutes my point.
He would rather lecture than listen.
It’s such a dumb simplification and false question, what’s he supposed to do? Pull out charts demonstrating that unchecked hamas bombimg canmpaigns against Isreal would be less carbon friendly?
What the person is saying is I don’t care about the environment or any other issue so I’m going to disrupt you talking about anything else
I’d love to see them locked in a room with the just stop oil protestors that pour oil on the road trying to cause accidents - battle of the delusional egomaniac single issue voters.
Jesus fuck I thought I was cynical but this take by CNN is like, weaponized cynicism.
Young Democrats face Gaza blowback as they try to mobilize students for Biden
Perhaps instead of trying to mobilize students to support an active genocider, they can go fuck themselves instead?
I guess the people pushing this don’t understand elections because Russia hasn’t had real ones in so long? Or is it just the new wave of idealistic anti intellectualism? ‘I have a moral cause so I don’t need to meaningfully interact with reality!’
It’s ok, Trump is on deck to take over as soon as you let him. That’s what you want, right?
‘What do you mean by “Why do you keep beating that straw man to death?”’
Oh I didn’t realize you were a lemmy.ml account. I should have just blocked you to begin with.
You won’t be missed
Some people seem way too okay with there being two bad choices for president.
Others seem way too resistent to any attempt to make one of those choices not bad.
The phrase “there are 3 bad choices for president” is true, but is so hilariously reductionist. I’m not saying you, in particular, are evaluating it through this lense, just that there is a difference between the “bad” here, and it’s really, really obvious.
It is a reference to the two party system that constrains the election to what is often considered the picking the lesser of two evils.
Predictable as always.
I’d like us to just remember the Iran hostage crisis and the Carter/Reagan Election. Carter negotiated in good faith to try to get the US hostages released. It didn’t work because Reagan had paid the Iranians some $40 million through Earl Brian to keep the hostages until after the election. Just an hour or so after Reagan was sworn into office, the hostages were released. This tipped the scales of the election.
Why do I bring this up now? Because the situation with Israel and Gaza is bad for Biden. He knows it and seems to be trying to do something to stop it. However, it is really in Trump’s interest, and even seems to be Israel’s plan anyway, to keep the war going as long as possible. For all we know, Trump is paying off Israel to not agree to a ceasefire.
So, just keep in mind who is being hurt by the situation and who has more to gain from the war going on indefinitely.
Netanyahu wants Trump to win and is acting accordingly
Israel’s actions make much more sense when viewed through this lens
seems to be trying to do something to stop it.
What evidence exists of this?
