Reflecting on his presidency, Obama posed the question, “Well, was there something else I could have done?”

Former President Barack Obama cautioned against ignoring the complexities of the Israel-Hamas war, warning that “all of us are complicit.”

“If you want to solve the problem, then you have to take in the whole truth. And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree,” he said in an excerpted interview with Pod Save America released Saturday.

    • PetDinosaurs@lemmy.world
      193·
      1 year ago

      Thank you so much.

      This is way more complex than it’s getting credit for.

      It always has been.

      Anyway, I miss having a better leader. He was just so presidential. Not perfect, but no one can be.

        • flicker@kbin.social
          607·
          1 year ago

          They’re trying to do a “gotcha.” What they mean is, “Are even the dead children responsible for the situation they were in?”

          It’s a fallacy; appeal to emotion. Obviously the dead children aren’t reading this, or hearing the words that “all of us are complicit.” Instead of thinking as a rational person would that the audience being addressed by those words are the people to who that phrase would apply, they did a rapid-fire, emotion-based response because they want to feel right and superior, instead of taking the mature, nuanced approach.

          • Maeve@kbin.social
            627·
            1 year ago

            Orrrr, maybe they’re talking about how Palestinian children are blamed for throwing rocks at tanks.

      • livus@kbin.social
        161·
        1 year ago

        @roofuskit
        That’s what I thought when I saw the headline but he’s actually talking about state actors when you read the context:

        “All this is taking place against the backdrop of decades of failure to achieve a durable peace for both Israelis and Palestinians, one that is based on genuine security for Israel, a recognition of its right to exist, and a peace that is based on an end of the occupation and the creation of a viable state and self-determination for the Palestinian people,” he added.

      • Lophostemon@aussie.zone
        71·
        1 year ago

        Especially the dead children. They were obviously bad because they chose to get born into the wrong place. Jesus hates them and had them killed for a reason. They should have chosen to get borned into a nice white Christian family in America.

        • some dumbass cracker evangelical, probably.
  • TinyPizza@kbin.social
    515·
    1 year ago

    This is bad news for Israels current course of action. When the guy who was popular (enough that the current guy could “best friend” his coat tails into office) starts saying this stuff loud enough for everyone to hear, it’s intentional. This looks like more subtle public distancing and changing of narrative.

    The former president argued that it was important to acknowledge multiple seemingly contradictory truths: Hamas’ actions were “horrific,” but “the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians” were also “unbearable.”
    Obama previously spoke out on the conflict, saying in a statement that any actions by Israel that ignore the human cost of the war against Hamas “could ultimately backfire.”

    Israel and it’s supporters should be sobered by this soft diplomacy. It’s very much aimed at them and the timing should make it clear that they are being isolated.

      • meowMix2525@lemm.ee
        4·
        1 year ago

        Even if it was a misfired Palestinian rocket, which still isn’t proven btw, it doesn’t outweigh the 30+ hospitals that Israel has bombed to this day, or for that matter the fucking refugee camp they bombed last week.

        • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
          21·
          1 year ago

          or for that matter the fucking refugee camp they bombed last week

          I was confused by this initially too (I read the headline and imagined a tent city for people fleeing this current war, but then the photo was of a city block with like 5 story buildings) but it’s only called a “refugee camp” because it was originally a site where refugees gathered after the 1948 war, in the modern day it’s more or less an urban neighborhood of Gaza with a population (at one point) of 100,000 just like any other part of the city

        • mwguy@infosec.pub
          01·
          1 year ago

          I mean it does though because of the claim of 500 dead bodies that magically appeared and then (not a joke) dissolved like salt into water once it was clear it was IJ at fault and not the IDF.

          Israel has largely been pinpoint with its strikes and when you compare it’s released maps of Gaza’s tunnel networks from the last war with the BBC’s map of its airstrikes it’s very clear what they’re doing.

    • jimbo@lemmy.world
      1815·
      1 year ago

      I don’t see where Obama said anything about things being proportionate, and I don’t know what “proportionate” has to do with the fact that heinous acts have been taken by both sides.

      • coffee_poops@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        2112·
        1 year ago

        There’s no “both sides” to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.

        • Serinus@lemmy.world
          178·
          1 year ago

          How many times can you poke a bear before it decides it’s done?

          It’s not an excuse. Israel’s actions are absolutely disproportionate. I can argue either side, but that’s exactly the point. Nobody’s hands are clean. You don’t have to condone Israel’s actions to understand they were provoked.

          There can never be peace without both sides admitting some fault. Two wrongs don’t make a right. 9061 wrongs don’t cancel out 1400 wrongs. That’s not how any of this works.

          What do you suggest Israel does? What do you suggest Palestinians in Gaza do? Until you think a little bit deeper, you can’t just say dismissive, pithy things that only favor one side.

          This isn’t a sports team. You can’t just pick a side and cheer for them no matter what.

        • jimbo@lemmy.world
          1410·
          1 year ago

          There’s no “both sides” to this anymore. Almost ten times the people have been killed by Israel with almost all of them being civilians.

          Israel has killed ten times the people compared to who? Oh yeah, the other “side”, who also has killed a bunch of civilians.

          • coffee_poops@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            54·
            1 year ago

            I’m not talking a pro-Hamas position. I’m taking a pro-child position. You don’t give a fuck about people though.

            • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
              2·
              1 year ago

              In a complete shock to everyone, the guy with the tankie name is all for the deaths of innocent civilians

              At least they wear it like a badge of honor, making it easy to identify and ignore them

                • trafficnab@lemmy.ca
                  0·
                  1 year ago

                  We should give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he’s only advocating for the ~25% (2m people or so) of the Israeli civilian population that’s not native born to be killed? Or maybe only the ~500k Israeli civilians who are >75 years old that were alive to see the 1948 war and creation of the state? Maybe some combination of the two? Surely a tankie can’t be advocating for the genocide of an entire nation?

                  Edit: Oh he messaged me instead of replying? Not sure if that was on accident but:

                  settlers aren’t civilians, only settlers think they’re civilians

                  and you are definitely so good at ignoring when you reply to my comment

                  you libs are a joke and a half ill tell ya

                  No no, you misunderstand me, when I say “ignore” I only mean disregard your opinions, there’s no way I’d miss out on pointing and laughing with everyone else at the genocidal tankies, we have to make sure nobody around here thinks it’s an appropriate opinion to have

    • SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca
      1312·
      1 year ago

      Terrorists consider civilian casualties to be a scorecard. Hamas benefits when there’s Israeli civilian casualties. Hamas also benefits when there’s Palestinian civilian casualties.

      That’s the whole point of taking hostages isn’t it? To force Israel into a ground campaign which will cause Palestinian civilian casualties.

      The military forces of civilized nations don’t consider civilian casualties to be a victory no matter which side it’s on. They have an objective and need to achieve that objective while minimizing civilian casualties. The objective of the IDF is to free the hostages. They will make an effort to minimize civilian casualties. But they must achieve that objective even while know civilian causalities are a certainty even when they make an to keep those casualties to a minimum.

      This is the nature of war. And this is a war Hamas started. And remember there could be significantly fewer casualties (and a humanitarian ceasefire) if Hamas released the hostages.

      But they won’t do that because their objective is to maximize the number of Palestinian casualties because many people look at those casualties and become angry and want to support them.

      Netanyahu will lose power because of 1400 Israeli deaths. Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered to be a failure by Israelis.

      Both Israeli and Palestinian civilian casualties are considered a success by Hamas. They are psychopaths that know how people react to these numbers.

  • TimeSquirrel@kbin.social
    242·
    1 year ago

    Funny they never say this kinda shit or act upon it when they have any actual power. Like Eisenhower and his military industrial complex speech.

  • IHaveTwoCows@lemm.ee
    192·
    1 year ago

    THEN STOP GIVING THEM MONEY AND WEAPONS, GODDAMMIT!!!

    SEIZE THE FUCKING WEAPONS MANUFACTURERS, THEIR BANK ACCOUNTS,AND NATIONALIZE THEM

    • Dran@lemmy.world
      61·
      1 year ago

      We (the US) are the weapon’s manufacturers and we (the US) sell them the weapons.

      We do it because if we didn’t, Russia and China would effectively conquer the middle east, and they’d allow a lot worse things to happen as long as raw materials, oil, and cheap labour kept flowing back in their favor.

      It’s a complex subject any way you slice it because it’s possible inaction has worse consequences than complicity.

      • HappycamperNZ@lemmy.world
        1·
        1 year ago

        Don’t you just hate how there are no simple solutions to anything? I’m sick of people saying “just get along” as if they never thought that could be a preferred option.

      • iforgotmyinstance@lemmy.worldEnglish
        11·
        1 year ago

        All I know is we (the US) deserve more investment in ourselves and do not need to fund another country’s war of prosecution.

      • IHaveTwoCows@lemm.ee
        11·
        1 year ago

        Let Russia and China have it. It’s costing me entirely too goddamn much to keep trying to stave off the inevitable

    • roofuskit@lemmy.world
      19·
      1 year ago

      Yes, it’s normal for past presidents to kind of step aside except for some small fundraising and party politics. It’s not always what happens but it’s more common than the alternatives.

    • nicetriangle@kbin.social
      12·
      1 year ago

      Bush Sr certainly fell of the map and Carter basically went on to do a lot of charitable work but wasn’t particularly vocal in the media.

      • chaogomu@kbin.social
        9·
        1 year ago

        Bush Sr was spending most of his time in the 90s cultivating a close business relationship with the Saudis, particularly his fellow members of the Carlyle Group.

        Bush Sr was at the Annual Investor’s Conference on 9/11 where Shafiq bin Laden was the Guest of Honor.

    • s_s@lemm.eeEnglish
      3·
      1 year ago

      Normal in the modern era.

      In the 1800s they’d run as senators after their presidential terms if they were young enough.

      • Ð Greıt Þu̇mpkin@lemm.ee
        1·
        1 year ago

        In the 1800s running for Senate basically meant looking intimidatingly at the statehouse and daring them to explain to the voters why they said no to the former president from their state that those voters probably supported overwhelmingly

  • Veedem@lemmy.worldEnglish
    63·
    1 year ago

    Well thought out response from someone who knows how to captivate an audience. I miss his leadership even if there were some key flaws during his terms (e.g. the gross overuse of drone strikes).

    Ultimately, no president is perfect but I also believe their ability to be a figure head who can make the public look inward, from time to time, is important.

    Trump did nothing to lead. He just spread anger and hostility. Biden, while he means well, has never been the beet public speaker (both in presence and in avoiding putting his foot in his mouth).

  • spudwart@spudwart.comEnglish
    1·
    1 year ago

    “It’s complicated” is no excuse to be arming an already powerful nation with our tax dollars to make the situation more “complicated.”

    If it’s so damn complicated, maybe we shouldn’t be sending arms and tax dollars directly over to Israel, but rather send humanitarian aid to both sides instead.

    Taking a side in a complicated conflict of which many people don’t fully understand is an unwise decision, and using tax dollars to arm one or even both sides of a conflict we don’t fully understand is unethical.

  • thecrotch@sh.itjust.works
    55·
    1 year ago

    Wow Barack “double Bush’s drone strikes, kill 12,000 Afghani civilians, and bomb a Doctor’s Without Boarders hospital” Obama wants to show restraint now that he’s no longer in a position to stop the bloodshed…

  • Harpsist@lemmy.world
    45·
    1 year ago

    Didn’t he drop more bombs in Afghanistan and the middle East during his time in office?

    (that’s a legit question - I don’t know or claim to know)

    • enki@lemm.eeEnglish
      54·
      1 year ago

      Get the fuck out of here with your Tucker Carlson “I’m just asking questions” bullshit. The little kids table is to the left of the soft serve machine.

  • ivanafterall@kbin.social
    721·
    1 year ago

    And you then have to admit nobody’s hands are clean, that all of us are complicit to some degree

    Nuh-uh. You are not dragging me into this shit. I didn’t want any of it!

      • TechyDad@lemmy.world
        4·
        1 year ago

        Right. People like simple narratives: “A is the Good Side. They don’t do anything bad. If A does something that looks bad, it’s because Evil B made them. Everyone within A are saints. B is that Evil Side. Everything they do is evil. If B does something that looks good, it’s either propaganda or a trick. Everyone in B are devils and deserve to be wiped out!”

        In truth, both sides in this conflict have done horrible things (and, no, committing atrocities “because you had a good reason” doesn’t absolve the atrocities). In addition, there are foreign elements tossing gas on the fire. Iran on the Hamas side, giving them resources to kill Jews. Evangelical Christians on the Israeli side, supporting settlers and right wing politicians in the hopes that a big attack will happen and get Jesus to come back.

        The whole region is a Gordian Knot, but too many people just want simple answers. If the answer was simple, we’d have peace there by now.