Alright, first let me get the fluff out of the way, I think you and I both know I could write similar lengthy comments about the Bible on slavery and sexism. I’m strongly anti-both, and I’ve read the whole Bible, I’m not unaware of anything in there, nor would I try to pretend a verse doesn’t exist.
But I think you’re hitting on a really interesting question, that I’d summarize as “If God is real, then why make himself so scarce? Why not reveal himself clearly, clarify his intentions, and prove himself real to avoid all this suffering?”.
I’ll pose an alternate, rhetorical question that’ll tie in later. Why even create humans at all? God could’ve simply created more angels to worship him, or lived in solitude, or heck, in Genesis terms, he could’ve just not put that apple in the garden for Eve to eat so we could’ve all lived in paradise forever.
The answer I see in the Bible, and my own experience, is that God really wants relationship. He actually wants a relationship based on faith, where you choose to have a relationship with him, not because you have to, but because you want to. We’re supposed to be made in God’s image, and we’ve written tons of fiction about the emptiness and purposelessness of happiness without free will, or the sadness of relationships involving a love potion, or more recently AI, and I kinda think that’s what it’s like.
For God, if he made himself undeniable, he couldn’t have a real relationship with us. We’d have to believe in him and have a relationship, it’d just be stupid not to. So I think that’s why God would make a world with physics and chemistry that don’t need him to function. And that’s why he doesn’t descend in a cloud of lightning and thunder and tell us off for all the dumb stuff we do in his name.
That said, I think it’s really fair to take issue with God from that answer. A lot of people will continue to do terrible things based on snippets of the Bible, and it is unfair how cruel a lot of the world is, and how many people suffer in it that wouldn’t have to with a little more divine intervention. I can’t answer that one for ya, it’s an extremely reasonable reaction, and one I wonder about myself sometimes. Make of it what you will.
I’m not really trying to convince you or anyone else here of anything, except maybe that I’m not an asshole despite believing in the Bible. I certainly don’t have any illusions of persuading someone about something as major as their religion in a comment thread online. It’s been an enjoyable discussion though, and generally respectful, so I’m quite pleased with how it’s gone.
Well I must tip my hat to you, despite disagreeing with you. Thanks for your candor.
I suppose I wouldn’t take as much issue with it all if it weren’t for the fact that my inability to believe in something without evidence is cause for my eternal damnation.
I think a belief in a disinterested god (or rather, one who doesn’t intervene) can make a lot more sense given what we observe about our universe.
But since I’m being judged (from what I’ve understood) based on whether or not I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour, I’m just never going to be able see things the Christian way.
Very fair, I can easily understand being uncomfortable with the whole concept of hell. A lot of Christians try to erase it as well, I recall quite the kerfluffle several years back about a book by Rob Bell (Love Wins, IIRC) arguing that God would actually save everyone in Revelations, and Hell wouldn’t actually exist.
Unfortunately, I find it… unconvincing from a Biblical study standpoint. I’d certainly prefer if Rob Bell was right though. Theologian Francis Chan wrote a book in response to that one, disproving it thoroughly but also elaborating a lot on hell (Erasing Hell, IIRC), and I found it really moving, and quite helpful, at the time. Sadly that was too many years ago for me to remember the details. I need to re-read that sometime, and generally do some more study on hell, as I wish I could give a better response on the topic, and also for myself.
For me now… I try to live almost as if it doesn’t exist though. It’s not helpful or kind to bash people over the head with the whole “fire and brimstone” thing, the church proved pretty well that it burns more bridges than it builds anyway, and I don’t need eternal damnation as a motivator to live decently. I’d rather embrace God for the relationship now than out of fear for after I die. I simply don’t give it much thought, which is probably why I’ve forgotten almost all of the theology I knew about the topic.
Alright, first let me get the fluff out of the way, I think you and I both know I could write similar lengthy comments about the Bible on slavery and sexism. I’m strongly anti-both, and I’ve read the whole Bible, I’m not unaware of anything in there, nor would I try to pretend a verse doesn’t exist.
But I think you’re hitting on a really interesting question, that I’d summarize as “If God is real, then why make himself so scarce? Why not reveal himself clearly, clarify his intentions, and prove himself real to avoid all this suffering?”.
I’ll pose an alternate, rhetorical question that’ll tie in later. Why even create humans at all? God could’ve simply created more angels to worship him, or lived in solitude, or heck, in Genesis terms, he could’ve just not put that apple in the garden for Eve to eat so we could’ve all lived in paradise forever.
The answer I see in the Bible, and my own experience, is that God really wants relationship. He actually wants a relationship based on faith, where you choose to have a relationship with him, not because you have to, but because you want to. We’re supposed to be made in God’s image, and we’ve written tons of fiction about the emptiness and purposelessness of happiness without free will, or the sadness of relationships involving a love potion, or more recently AI, and I kinda think that’s what it’s like.
For God, if he made himself undeniable, he couldn’t have a real relationship with us. We’d have to believe in him and have a relationship, it’d just be stupid not to. So I think that’s why God would make a world with physics and chemistry that don’t need him to function. And that’s why he doesn’t descend in a cloud of lightning and thunder and tell us off for all the dumb stuff we do in his name.
That said, I think it’s really fair to take issue with God from that answer. A lot of people will continue to do terrible things based on snippets of the Bible, and it is unfair how cruel a lot of the world is, and how many people suffer in it that wouldn’t have to with a little more divine intervention. I can’t answer that one for ya, it’s an extremely reasonable reaction, and one I wonder about myself sometimes. Make of it what you will.
I’m not really trying to convince you or anyone else here of anything, except maybe that I’m not an asshole despite believing in the Bible. I certainly don’t have any illusions of persuading someone about something as major as their religion in a comment thread online. It’s been an enjoyable discussion though, and generally respectful, so I’m quite pleased with how it’s gone.
Well I must tip my hat to you, despite disagreeing with you. Thanks for your candor.
I suppose I wouldn’t take as much issue with it all if it weren’t for the fact that my inability to believe in something without evidence is cause for my eternal damnation.
I think a belief in a disinterested god (or rather, one who doesn’t intervene) can make a lot more sense given what we observe about our universe.
But since I’m being judged (from what I’ve understood) based on whether or not I accept Jesus as my lord and saviour, I’m just never going to be able see things the Christian way.
Thanks for your thoughts
Very fair, I can easily understand being uncomfortable with the whole concept of hell. A lot of Christians try to erase it as well, I recall quite the kerfluffle several years back about a book by Rob Bell (Love Wins, IIRC) arguing that God would actually save everyone in Revelations, and Hell wouldn’t actually exist.
Unfortunately, I find it… unconvincing from a Biblical study standpoint. I’d certainly prefer if Rob Bell was right though. Theologian Francis Chan wrote a book in response to that one, disproving it thoroughly but also elaborating a lot on hell (Erasing Hell, IIRC), and I found it really moving, and quite helpful, at the time. Sadly that was too many years ago for me to remember the details. I need to re-read that sometime, and generally do some more study on hell, as I wish I could give a better response on the topic, and also for myself.
For me now… I try to live almost as if it doesn’t exist though. It’s not helpful or kind to bash people over the head with the whole “fire and brimstone” thing, the church proved pretty well that it burns more bridges than it builds anyway, and I don’t need eternal damnation as a motivator to live decently. I’d rather embrace God for the relationship now than out of fear for after I die. I simply don’t give it much thought, which is probably why I’ve forgotten almost all of the theology I knew about the topic.
Anyway, a pleasure to chat with you as well!