In an unexpected mask off “secure” email and VPN provider Proton took the stance of siding with the fascist MAGA Reps. Proton’s services are no option for me and many others any longer. Let’s collect and discuss alternatives (E2E encrypted email and VPN) here 🔐👇

Always try to provide:

-Server location (jurisdiction)

-Governance

-Integrity/trustworthiness/transparency

-User experience/ease of use (grade 1 to 10, lets take Proton as a benchmark with an 8)

-Pricing and links

If you know alternative setups, feel free to share, too.

#ProtonExodus

Background: https://lemmy.ca/comment/13913116

Edit:typo

    • The Hobbyist@lemmy.zip
      2·
      3 months ago

      Am I the only that don’t see this the same way as the rest? I am in way way endorsing or supporting MAGA, but they did take action against big tech (though for reasons of retribution) and I see Proton only acknowledging a good person being designated to lead the next antitrust efforts, apparently with a good track record.

      Proton also acknowledges Lina Kahn who has done a great job, nominated under Joe Biden.

      Ultimately, I feel like from a perspective of Proton, any win against Big Tech, is a good win, and I can’t disagree.

      There is a longer discussion to be had around how the dems were supported by oligarchs and I think that’s what Proton is referring to, they decided to turn a blind eye under the Obama administration for instance. Bernie Sanders goes to lengths about this in this interview, illuminating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzkgWDCucNY

      So all in all, maga sucks, new pick probably good, and in my view, proton not actually endorsing maga/trump but just acknowledging a good pick.

      Did I miss something?

      • Eatspancakes84@lemmy.world
        2·
        3 months ago

        The main part of the message that pissed me off was the idea that GOP sides with the “little guy”. First, it’s demonstrably false. Second, he is a tech CEO. He wouldn’t recognise a little guy before his security crew has time to forcibly remove him.

  • marcie (she/her)@lemmy.ml
    4·
    3 months ago

    Truly unhinged that they decided to come out on this. Fellas, you are fucking Swiss why throw yourself under the bus for the US election

    • Empricorn@feddit.nlEnglish
      2·
      3 months ago

      Because terrible people literally can’t help themselves. Wait for people to show you who they truly are, they will…

    • AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1·
      3 months ago

      I thought they were talking about the elementary particle—I was afraid we’d have to find some other way of manifesting our physical existence.

  • Timber@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    2·
    3 months ago

    systemli.org

    • Germany (I think)
    • Politically leftist
    • Very nice people
    • User experience 8, works fine and people put a lot of effort in
    • It’s free, but you need an invite code
  • ziproot@lemmy.ml
    2·
    3 months ago

    Server locations: Riseup is in the US (Washington state), so keep that in mind. Disroot is in the Netherlands (part of the EU).

    Governance: Riseup: Look at their “about us” page. Disroot: Look at their “about” page. The terms of service are more detailed. tl;dr: As far as I can tell, these are run by leftists.

    Integrity/Transparency: I have no idea how to grade this.

    Ease of Use: Subjective. Riseup VPN is just: install the client, turn it on or off. Disroot is much better with a mail client of some kind, so if you already use one, it’s probably a 10, otherwise, the webmail server isn’t that great. Disroot also requries manual encryption (I’m biased here because I use Kmail which makes PGP really easy to use).

    Pricing and Links: Free https://riseup.net/en/vpn https://disroot.org/en/services/email

    tl;dr: Use collective-run services, not corporate-run services

    • perestroika@lemm.ee
      1·
      3 months ago

      Regarding e-mail: “riseup.net” requires that a long-time user vouch for a new user and invite them. If the new user quickly turns into a complaint magnet (there’s a coming-of-age period after which their actions are considered their own), both the user and the inviter will be held responsible (kicked off the service). I think (hope) they aren’t so strict with VPN, but they have limited people and could not administer a mess made by a big bunch of people.

      Needless to say, none of my (anarchist) comrades have ever been kicked off RiseUp, but they don’t send spam or threats, they just send their cat pictures encrypted with GPG, causing the authorities endless work. :)

      Just like every reasonable service, RiseUp has a few technical mechanisms to ensure they aren’t compromised (disk and inbox encryption, etc) but obviously those can’t help against a dedicated and well-resourced adversary.

      So, whatever e-mail server you use - use PGP / GPG. :) Then the adversary must compromise your device. If you are hardcore, encrypt and sign on an offline device. Then the adversary must breach the air gap.

      (I used to sign releases for some anonymity-related project years ago. Those were the times when I seriously took measures because others depended on me. Currently, not so much.)

      P.S. As for the lack of resources at RiseUp: this can be alleviated by donating to them. Which reminds me, I should set up a small regular donation to their representative organization in the EU.

  • Clbull@lemmy.world
    2·
    3 months ago

    If they think Dollar Store Hitler is going to stand up for small businesses then they’re about to have a rude awakening.

    • 100_kg_90_de_belin@feddit.it
      1·
      3 months ago

      Tech bros aren’t exactly known for a nuanced understanding of whatever isn’t bleeps and blips: that’s what you get when the educational system is nothing more than a pipeline for employment

  • Tin@lemmy.worldEnglish
    1·
    3 months ago

    The CEO “apologized” this morning (after being duly chastised, I’m sure):

    Hi all, last night, a post from last year from my personal X account suddenly became a topic of discussion here on Reddit. I want to share a few thoughts on this to provide clarity to the community on what is Proton’s policy on politics going forward.

    First, while the X post was not intended to be a political statement, I can understand how it can be interpreted as such, and it therefore should not have been made. While we will not prohibit all employees from expressing personal political opinions publicly, it is something I will personally avoid in the future. I lean left on some issues, and right on other issues, but it doesn’t serve our mission to publicly debate this. It should be obvious, but I will say that it is a false equivalence to say that agreeing with Republicans on one specific issue (antitrust enforcement to protect small companies) is equal to endorsing the entire Republican party platform.

    Second, officially Proton must always be politically neutral, and while we may share facts and analysis, our policy going forward will be to share no opinions of a political nature. The line between facts, analysis, and opinions can be blurry at times, but we will seek to better clarify this over time through your feedback and input.

    The exception to these rules is on the topics of privacy, security, and freedom. These are necessarily political topics, where influencing public policy to defend these values, often requires engaging politically.

    The operations of Proton have always reflected our neutrality. For example, recently we refused pressure to deplatform both Palestinian student groups and Zionist student groups, not because we necessarily agreed with their views, but because we believe more strongly in their right to have their own views.

    It is also a legal guarantee under Swiss law, which explicitly prohibits us from assisting foreign governments or agencies, and allows us no discretion to show favoritism as Swiss law and Swiss courts have the final say.

    The promise we make is that no matter your politics, you will always be welcome at Proton (subject of course to adherence to our terms and conditions). When it comes to defending your right to privacy, Proton will show no favoritism or bias, and will unconditionally defend it irrespective of the opinions you may hold.

    This is because both Proton as a company, and Proton as a community, is highly diverse, with people that hold a wide range of opinions and perspectives. It’s important that we not lose sight of nuance. Agreeing/disagreeing with somebody on one point, rarely means you agree/disagree with them on every other point.

    I would like to believe that as a community there is more that unites us than divides us, and that privacy and freedom are universal values that we can all agree upon. This continues to be the mission of the non-profit Proton Foundation, and we will strive to carry it out as neutrally as possible.

    Going forward, I will be posting via u/andy1011000. Thank you for your feedback and inputs so far, and we look forward to continuing the conversation.

    Original post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ProtonMail/comments/1i2nz9v/on_politics_and_proton_a_message_from_andy/

    Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?

    • vga@sopuli.xyz
      1·
      3 months ago

      Am I being paranoid when I notice that the binary at the end of his username translates to 88?

      Well, there’s a good possibility that he might have been born in 1988. If not, then that doesn’t look very good.

      Personally, I think he’d be an extremely unusual neo-nazi, given his background. So perhaps a bit of Occam’s Razor should be applied here.

    • fastfomo7@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      11·
      3 months ago

      No, 88 is not a bad number. “88” is pronounced like “發發” in Taiwanese, which means ‘making fortune’. And you might also see Taiwanese people using “168” in their usernames, as it has similar meaning.

        • fastfomo7@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          01·
          3 months ago

          Sure, it could be. I wasn’t defending him.
          Just please don’t think most of us using “88” or “888” for hinting Nazis, and “666” for praying Satan.

    • Poop@lemmy.ca
      01·
      3 months ago

      Not defending the 88, he could be a racist, but he’s apparently from Taiwan. It is a common number in Chinese culture, guessing Taiwan too. Where I live there have been a couple of businesses with “88” in the name and both were Chinese.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/88_(number)

  • HappyFrog@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    1·
    3 months ago

    I’ll still continue using proton, as I haven’t seen them staying from their goal just yet, but I’d love to see some alternatives non the less.

  • sadTruth@lemmy.hogru.chEnglish
    1·
    3 months ago

    There are 2 kinds of companies:

    1. Evil companies
    2. Companies that are not evil YET.

    What this means in this case is that only your own E-Mail server running on a Raspi in your own home can be considered private or secure in the long run. Unfortunately this is really really hard to do, which is the only reason i have not done it yet.
    Personally i do not consider any E-Mail private, because E-Mail is not E2E-encrypted, and 99.9% of times one side of the conversation is going to be hosted on some shady companies servers.

    Of course Proton delivers a great service, because they make an insecure protocol a little less insecure, and i personally use Proton mail. Unfortunately their closed-source nature makes it impossible to switch providers without abandoning their great software.

    As for services like Drive, they can actually be hosted privately and securely on your own Raspi with stuff like NextCloud/OwnCloud.
    For those that can’t/don’t want to self-host, i would recommend paying for a hoster that hosts FOSS software and contributes to it either with money or code. In that case you would probably loose E2E-encryption, but gain the ability to switch providers once your provider turns on you. In that case at least some of your money would continue to offer value to you by having improved the software you are still using.

  • Alas Poor Erinaceus@lemmy.mlEnglish
    1·
    3 months ago

    You could look at infomaniak, but I didn’t have the best experience trying out (or even getting started with) their services. Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be tough (or at least it was from me while I was looking to escape from Tuta). Good luck, tho.

    EDIT: Infomaniak is on F-Droid!

    EDIT EDIT: Infomaniak is only available in Europe! Infomaniak is only available with a European phone number, so using a VPN won’t help! 🙁👎

    • sunzu2@thebrainbin.org
      0·
      3 months ago

      Finding a provider that has all of Proton’s apps is going to be toug

      Nobody should be using any provider as one stop shop… That’s how we got cooked by Google and Apple the first time folks.

      Unbundle, mix and match…

      Yeah it auck Proton did this but if you only got one proton service, it is eaiser to either do nothing or switch it.

  • c1a5s1c@feddit.orgEnglish
    1·
    3 months ago

    Maybe not the contribution that you’re looking for, but going to tell you this story regardless.

    I am Swiss, and am a former Department of Foreign Affairs (FDFA / EDA) employee. My colleagues and I had organized an evening on cybersecurity, where we showcase what Switzerland has to offer. I invited stakeholders such as:

    • Dreamlab (really cool company, should look them up if you don’t know of them)
    • NCSC (Swiss National Cyber Security Center)
    • Some Swiss cyber regulator; and
    • Proton

    Firstly, when speaking to a delegate of one of the above listed (don’t feel comfortably sharing publicly which one), he ushered a statement; upon me saying I’m a huge Proton fan and subscribed to all services - “they are lying to your faces”.

    I was curious, so I spoke with the regulators and NCSC delegates, they said that Proton has been involved in a handful of leaks - some that were made public, some behind the scenes.

    When I spoke to Andy, having told him that I grew up in Canada, I asked him what his plan was for North America. His response: “I will gladly take their money, but never open up shop there - too many national security departments that come knocking on the door”.

    Now I see that (on the Proton page), that they are looking for a few US based positions for Marketing and Growth - going against what we discussed a few years back. In all honesty, I still have a Plus subscription with them, but beginning to questions a lot more things regarding security and ethics at Proton. Guess I’ll just self-host in the future. Trust no one but yourself with your personal data.