Was there even a mass exodus? I largely avoid Reddit now, but I do kind of doubt that they’ve been hurt in any meaningful way by all the protests and people leaving…
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Migration goes beyond sheer numbers. The 3.8k users are probably the one that were the most attached to initial Reddit, hence people who would contribute the more. I would rather be with those 3.8k users than the millions of people okay with staying on Reddit despite Spez’s decisions.
I hope that once Lemmy is a bit more polished (instance blocking, account migration, hot filtering working etc.), we will gradually see a second wave of arrivals.
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But if that were the case, wouldn’t GDPR already be used to take down TOR or torrents or any other p2p tech? All it would take is someone’s personal information being on them, right? (I’m really asking I have no idea)
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Then you adapt to that threat with user exports or built in auto migration methods.
The distributed nature makes it much harder to down the fediverse with legal claims than it does reddit/twitter/whatever already. Just being hosted in different countries makes these claims a stunning pain in the ass, as many countries do not require any compliance with the DMCA.
Sure if you want to play in a sandbox alone and have nothing but privacy and lqbgt content (nothing against them in the least bit).
That’s a good point. Right now if I send something out, even if the company I submitted it to deletes it from their servers, doesn’t mean other users will delete copies of the data I want to have deleted. Only the party I submitted it to will have to delete it.
Just take a screenshot of a tweet or a LinkedIn profile or whatever someone posts here in the Fediverse, anyone can capture a copy of it.
It’s currently impossible to follow a GDPR information delete request for example, because you can’t delete the info from other instances.
What makes it impossible? Why would any given instance maintainer be responsible for the data on someone else’s instance? Would it not fall on the GDPR requester to make that request of each individual instance?
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So then if someone requests that Gmail delete all their email data, is Google then responsible for making sure any emails sent out from it’s server to another is also deleted from those external servers?
Just in case you guys are wondering, there’s probably dozens of us enjoying the fuck out of this conversation. Thank you for asking questions I wouldn’t think of asking. On behalf of all three of us lurking.
Lol yeah this is great.
I really want to hear the answer to this
I don’t have the answer but I think of it like this.
Email is essentially a direct conversation between you and someone in the same room but you may extend (cc) to those people in the house. There is an implicit “I am including you in the conversation”
Lemmy on the other hand is more akin to talking to someone in a crowded bar but the conversation is recorded and anyone over the world has the ability to listen to the conversation at any given time.
Apples and oranges.
Interesting perspective, but then cannot we consider that Lemmy users are aware that they are including all of the Fediverse in their conversation? That way Lemmy instances could be treated in the same way email providers are
See https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/right-to-be-forgotten/
Once the “controller has made the personal data public”, they have legal obligations. When you send an email, you are not making it public.
Essentially yes, it’s called the Right to Erasure or the Right to be Forgotten. If the user is in a country that adheres to GDPR and the company controlling the data operates in a country that also uses GDPR, then that right applies.
The only reason Google/Gmail wouldnt delete (or wouldn’t be able to delete) some of your data would be if they had a lawful or legitimate basis for holding onto it.
I can’t think of a reason Google would give for hanging on to your data but that doesn’t mean there isn’t one, but they’d have to notify you of that reason as part of their response to your request.
Unless these instances are showing ads and selling data, I’m pretty sure they’re protected from the law. Not only that but if you’re not hosting in the EU that law doesn’t apply to you.
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The problem here is how does that work? If I host something in the USA, how is someone going to bring a lawsuit towards me if I am also in the USA?
Asking honest questions here. As this just sounds like a lot of chest thumping from the EU.
“Provided your company doesn’t specifically target its services at individuals in the EU, it is not subject to the rules of the GDPR.”
Just say, we don’t provide or target EU individuals and you’re free.
Yeah, but if you don’t have any assets in the EU for them to seize, and if you’re not present in the bloc yourself it doesn’t matter for shit. They have no jurisdiction or ability to enforce unless you really, really want to operate inside of their market at scale.
See https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/right-to-be-forgotten/
Once the “controller has made the personal data public”, they have legal obligations.
Yes, but “the controller” is one instance, and it’s certainly easy for one instance to allow a user to be forgotten. You can purge the user from the instance. Then they are forgotten, as far as the instance is concerned.
As an example, just because someone makes a GDPR request on YouTube to delete a video, does not require Google to actually remove the video from the whole internet. There are plenty of websites that archive content which are unaffected by that GDPR request. It’s the exact same thing with different Lemmy instances, just because you ask lemm.ee to delete your content does not mean that lemmy.world needs to delete your content.
The GPDR doesn’t require Lemmy to remove personal data from the entire internet. But when a Lemmy instance gives data to other Lemmy instance, there are legal responsibilities.
https://gdpr-info.eu/art-17-gdpr/ Where the controller has made the personal data public and is obliged pursuant to paragraph 1 to erase the personal data, the controller, taking account of available technology and the cost of implementation, shall take reasonable steps, including technical measures, to inform controllers which are processing the personal data that the data subject has requested the erasure by such controllers of any links to, or copy or replication of, those personal data.
==========
Maybe this is open to interpretation, but I feel that the same Federation protocol that federates out my personal data (my posts and comments), should also federate out my delete requests. I’m unsure why this would be controversial.
This is a big issue of eu regulations. They are needed, but don’t account for non profit initiatives, in practice favoring big players
I’m never to sure about GDPR. The spirit of the law is that any identifiable information has to indeed be removed.
However, does a Lemmy username really fit that definition? If John Doe has all of his Lemmy content under CoolNick89, I’m not sure GDPR applies.
Emails, especially if they contain first and last name, are a different story, but those would only be known by the host instance.
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Interesting, thanks. I’ll research this further.
IP addresses make more sense, because they can be used to be cross-checked with your ISP to know who you are.
If you don’t tell anyone your username and use a VPN, there is no way for people to guess your Lemmy username
The law specifically names “online identifier”.
The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or one of several special characteristics, which expresses the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, commercial, cultural or social identity of these natural persons. In practice, these also include all data which are or can be assigned to a person in any kind of way. For example, the telephone, credit card or personnel number of a person, account data, number plate, appearance, customer number or address are all personal data.
Thanks for the definition, and that brings us to the next question: I know your identifier, King@lemm.ee. However, does that make you identifiable by me, even indirectly? I have no way to identify you using that information.
I always think that they meant online identifier such as jdoe@company.com, where the identifier indeed directly allows to identify the person.
The CCPA (USA version) and GDPR (EU) both specify Personal Data, not Personally Identifiable Information. So the contents of my posts are my personal data, even if my username doesn’t identify to a real person. If I want my personal data removed from Lemmy, the GDPR allows for me to request it to be deleted.
Lemmy is still in the early stages. I’m not asking for changes to be made right away, or even this year. But I do feel that my personal data should be under my control. Lemmy should be programmed to federate out the the deletion of all my personal data, if I make such a request.
Where the controller has made the personal data public and is obliged pursuant to paragraph 1 to erase the personal data, the controller, taking account of available technology and the cost of implementation, shall take reasonable steps, including technical measures, to inform controllers which are processing the personal data that the data subject has requested the erasure by such controllers of any links to, or copy or replication of, those personal data
(*) Note the CCPA has a ton of exceptions, and only really applies to the larger social media sites.
Interesting. To be honest, I could see such a feature coming down the line, in a few months let’s say.
However, the question that it bring is, what to do with archive.is or wayback machine? Are those also non-compliant for archiving the pages every so often?
Well, the upside and the downside of GDPR is that if you’re not a member of the EU, you can basically just tell them to go fuck themselves because they have little to no actual power to impact you since you’re not within their jurisdiction.
Makes me wonder if the fediverse shouldn’t be individually instanced. Like Each persons phone/browser is their own individual “instance”. Maybe a central hub/series of hubs (like instances as they are now maybe) that act like dns servers to point everyone around. No content is hosted on them, they just tell everyone’s apps where to look to the other apps for posts.
I have no idea, I’m a moron and I don’t know how the internet actually works. I’m guessing this is a problem at scale.
You’re not a moron, you were slightly right with dns. You’re idea is actually quite sound and it’s something I’m interested in also. Basically p2p social networking.
We used to be able to stream 1080p via torrent stream p2p. We could do it.
Or those 3.8k users were on Apollo, RIF etc that didn’t bring any revenue to Reddit regardless.
They could care less about these users leaving, there are plenty of new angsty teenagers to take their place
If they’re the same that generated significantly more content, then it’s still a loss for reddit
It doesn’t really matter, though. The fact that I’m here and not using reddit has netted a huge improvement in my happiness.
To be honest, I don’t really care if more reddit users come here. They can keep their bad takes and dick-swinging contests on reddit.
A very good point. To be honest, if they are happy with that new demographic, and we are happy here, everyone’s happy
Unfortunately, as one of those 3.8k daily users, I’m still using Reddit mostly. Lemmy has a long way to go before I drop Reddit all the way.
That’s fine, really. There is no rush, the only people setting deadlines here were Reddit, and they still have to actually do something about killing access to 3rd parties (I know a lot of people still use 3rd party apps with Revanced keys)
The next wave won’t come until Lemmy post are indexed by google and ranking up on the first page. Until then, searching for obscure things will still land on old Reddit posts.
Depending on the domain, Reddit content might get outdated quite fast (definitely true for tech content).
Even creative fields such as fantheories and such will probably emerge on Lemmy once new shows are released (Futurama could be a good example).
instance blocking
What’s that?
The ability to block a whole instance instead of each community as we can know
The 3.8k users are probably the one that were the most attached to initial Reddit, hence people who would contribute the more.
I had 2 million karma and would hit the frontpage of All almost weekly. I stopped using Reddit once I came here.
Mass migration or not, I’m happier to be here with all of you.
I have to admit, when I came here I was hoping this would be a mass migration, but these days I think Lemmy is already great even without the bulk of Reddit’s user base joining. Easier to participate in conversions, less trolling, less aggression, fewer bots…
Not saying I don’t want Lemmy to grow more, but it’s a fantastic place already.
yeah people here are generally nicer. I do wish there more more active niche communities though
less trolling, less agression
less popcorn </3
But it’s manageable.
I agree. And if I’m being honest, I don’t want 100 million people from reddit suddenly appearing here. Same for Mastodon from Twitter. That would be awful.
Please make them stay where they are.
Ditto. This has been great
You get a Lemmy and you get a Lemmy and you get a Lemmy… 😉
Nice, mr. Fapper McFapper.
Thanks. I needed a jump scare.
I’m happier to be here with you. •̀ ͜ﻌ•́
I think the problem is, Lemmy’s greatest strength (Fediverse) is also the thing that’s going to hold back a mass migration at this point in time. Onboarding with Reddit is a breeze. You make an account, it asks you what your interests are and location based communities and you’re off to the races. Every community on reddit is immediately available to interact with.
When I came to lemmy I almost gave up on my initial onboarding and I’m a pretty tech savvy guy. I didn’t know where to go to start. There’s all these different lemmy sites and I didn’t know if they were the same thing or different and if I was signing up to the right one. Account creation failed initially without giving an error message (I’ll chalk that one up to just a bug). There didn’t seem to be any NSFW communities until I figured out the instance thing. You’re told you can use your account across instances but when you go to another instance via it’s domain you can’t interact with it, you have to get to another instance through your instance which is confusing as a newcomer. Any one of these issues is a falling off point for a less inclined visitor.
I’m not saying the fediverse thing is bad but the unfortunate byproduct of it is a difficult experience for newcomers, especially when you compare it to Reddit. I’m hoping growth in the community will bring in talent to solve for this initial experience or possibly apps which can handle all of this more seamlessly.
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I wonder if federated instances are something that can just become cultural knowledge over time, like any other technical piece of software. To a degree using reddit is like that to newcomers with it’s unique thread style and “independently” moderated subs. Lemmy just took it to another level.
Very good point. It will be generational maybe too. As younger people enter the Lemmy pool, they may not find it to be that unfriendly since it will be what they are used to.
You joined almost a month back, those were rough times. Today is much better.
Today I would just tell people
- Go to lemmy.world (even old.lemmy.world if they like that interface)
- Lurk for a while
- When you want to create an account, do it in LW. You will be able to move it later on.
That’s pretty much it.
Exactly. Back then federation wasn’t working either, apps were miles behind and servers were slow.
I had pretty much the same experience migrating from Reddit to Lemmy and I still don’t entirely understand how this thing works.
I’m still trying to figure out if I need to make an account on each Lemmy instance to reserve my username, since this is already my second account after fmhy.ml stopped working.
I wish some of the subs I frequented the most were a bit more active here, but I guess it’s a bit chicken and egg. Need to interact more with Lemmy ourselves to motivate others to.
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Doesn’t matter if there is or isn’t a mass mitigation, the %1 who did the modding and content creation were the loudest about the changes and most have started to move to other platforms. It’s very obvious now on reddit that the quality of the posts have started to tank.
yeah im sorry but lemmy.world in its ENTIRETY is basically the size of a small niche subreddit.
How many users moved away from Lemmy.world to another instance?
Mind you that an active user is “anyone who makes a post”, and not readers nor subscribers, which are the metrics reddit uses.
With that said, yeah, no, there was no migration.
Is it important that Reddit suffers? For me the important thing is that lemmy flourishes and has good oc.
I support this point of view, but at the same time I want the status quo to be disrupted and the internet to change, I’m not a fan of allowing corporations to fall into complacency when they hold so much power.
Right? Ignore them, have fun here. No reason to give any thought to them.
No idea, and I don’t care. What matters for me is that there are enough people on Lemmy to keep it interesting.
Can’t speak for anyone else, but as soon as RIF died I was gone. Was on it for over 10 years, and the only way I would view reddit content. Reddit’s ui is cancer.
Honestly, I don’t really care. I like it here more than reddit and if it stays like it is, awesome.
I have no desire to see reddit succeed or fail, I simply found a place I fit in better.
I agree but I still want Reddit to burn 😂. But I’m an asshole so that’s okay.
Hear, hear!
Here, here!
I didn’t leave to make the service worse.
The service got worse, and so I left.
But why not both? 😂
Just have a look at the content there, it dropped a lot in quality.
As someone who only ever browsed all, I see no difference.
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I’ve noticed the same. It’s possible that a lot of content creators left. It’s also possible that you and I have gotten used to not having the lowest common denominator stream of consciousness from the Reddit hive mind firehosed in our faces.
I was gonna say. I don’t think r/all has changed much at all, but having actual quality content on Lemmy is really eye-opening as to what a trash heap r/all is.
As a browser, I notice that Lemmy seems much more dynamic and engaging. It’s small, weird and there appear to be all sorts of things going on in the corners which I didn’t notice so much on reddit (they were probably there, but got overlooked die to sheer volume of content). I like the experience so far, reminds me of the early days of exploring the web.
The OC to porn ratio has shifted in favor of porn.
The real metric is the OC to bot ratio
Is that a problem?
Only if you don’t want to see porn
Reddit probably got it’s initial boost from porn that got it to where it is today
I lost all patience with low effort posts. I try to call out anyone asking easily google-able questions or clear karma baiting. It took a couple days of this to realize I needed take a long break from it. I’m debating keeping my account solely to get my karma up a bit more and trying to sell it, not sure yet.
Probably yes, many of people from subreddits I followed left
For a bunch of the subs I frequented the mods just left. Some of those died, some are being taken over by right-wing extremists, some are still chugging along.
Interesting
Anyone that expected Lemmy to instantly get as big as reddit overnight were naive. Overall I think only a small fraction went away but reddit is clearly using tactics like mass inviting to group chats and reopening places to boost activity.
If we’re perfectly honest - No.
Reddit has over 53 some odd million users. Million with an M. Lemmy has gained, at most, upwards of just thousands. To call it a ‘mass exodus’ is really overselling it.
It’s going to take a fairly long time, for Lemmy to even scratch 100k even. I’m on both Reddit and Lemmy. Lemmy, for a more positive experience. Reddit, because the numbers are just there.
Several major subs have closed, they’re forced to campaign to keep mods, a significant amount of content generators have left. Even though it’s been only a couple weeks, they’ve slid on the global index of visited sites. They’ve lost 3-4% of 1.7 billion views in weeks. That’s 10’s of millions of ads not delivered. That alone is several million dollars lost on a site trying to be profitable. This doesn’t include people on the fence, people currently unaffected because their app didn’t die until this week, or people just watching the drama until it’s boring again. Also, Reddit depends heavily on free labor to succeed, the bulk of the community that is leaving is their free labor pool. They don’t have the cash to pay moderators for their time and they just removed the tools that let those people do their work.
This is some fomo type shit… forget about your ex, invest in your current!!!
Honestly I like Lemmy more and more everyday. It’s quality vs quantity when it comes to posts and the users.
Quanlity sounds like the next Antman movie.
Oops, a typo. But it does sounds like a movie title lol
Their user numbers are available with a web search. Reddit useage dipped towards end of June but has mostly leveled out.
Quite a few mods left, which has had a larger impact than an equal number of general users leaving would. The niche topic sub I was involved in went from four mods to one half-hearted mod. The quality of posts has dropped. Almost every comment thread contains complaints. Reports are piled up.
Most surprising to me when I peeked at the sub this weekend was the amount of borderline-incel desperation and negativity. The sub is for a hobby that while slightly male majority, we had plenty of women contributing with minimal problems. Not anymore. If I were a woman looking at that sub for the first time, I would probably block it. It is so depressing and angry now, I barely recognize it.
The real question is why anyone cares? Move on and just enjoy Lemmy. Forget about reddit.
I’m torn on this. Because a sort of injustice happened. Do we really just ignore enshitification, try to educate others, reflect and keep an eye on the site while trying to understand what happened and not repeat old mistakes? Or just move on with our lives and hope that the injustices sort themselves out?
I kinda want to watch reddit burn 🙊
Highway pile up that you KNOW you’re not supposed to slow down for and look at because that contributes to the problem but on the other hand we’re only human so of course I wait a hot second before accelerating back to highway speed.
If you want justice, then you move on and forget Reddit. Otherwise you’re just keeping it afloat and creating free promotion for it.
When you’re visiting it. Not by discussing it, the downfall, and the lessons learned. I don’t think we have to pretend that we don’t care or that it never happened. I just personally don’t go on the site any more to not feed them traffic.
Do you know how negative exposure is also fuelling Apple brand recognition? Yeah, you want it dead - ignore it.
What injustice? Reddit is “their” website and they can do what they want with it, we have always only been allowed to use it for their enrichment. The farmer is always very nice to his animals until its time to cash out.
Lemmy is hopefully the fix, in that it doesnt need to turn a profit, and we’re not locked in.
As the child of immigrants, I can tell you that running off and living your life is absolutely a viable strategy, and I’ve spent my whole life trying to underssand what happened so that the same thing doesn’t happen to my family again.
All that said, it is a website. The planet is broiling around us and the people responsible are not just free, but living like kings.
Honestly, we’re better off if all the idiots stay at reddit.
Couldn’t agree more.
I feel all those posts about reddit looking for mods for various communities is a good indicator. They might not have lost quantity all that much, but a very small portion of quality kept a lot of reddit interesting and running smoothly. A lot of that has either just dropped entirely engaging or migrated.
I doubt everyone would move. Some people simply take it as a sign to move on and do other things with their limited time on this little planet.
I see it as a signs of problems to come. Being a Mod sucks, the only reason most hung around was that they were passionate for the subs they moderated. Replacing moderators at first might be easy but I believe, with time, the turnover rate will increase linearly thus causing a massive drop in quality content as time progress. Thus causing a feed back loop of less good users, less good content and more shit users, more shit content, culminating in the slow and painful death Reddit.
