Independent Sen. Bernie Sanders said Sunday he doesn’t know that a ceasefire is possible in the Israel-Hamas war with “an organization like Hamas” involved.
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,” Sanders told CNN’s Dana Bash on “State of the Union” Sunday.
I don’t think peace is possible when one side is holding the other in an open air prison and giving them only the amount of calories needed to not die (after the war started even that was suspended)
Does that change anything?
Hamas is a terrorist organization with strong ties to Iran. We’ve already seen what happens when terrorist groups destabilize countries and take control. Syria is an ongoing testament to that. So is Afghanistan
Are the Israeli Government’s sins the reason why Hamas is in power? The extent is arguable, but it would be a lie to outright say “no”.
But… does that change anything?
Hamas is the power in Gaza. Any form of concessions that don’t involve the destruction of Hamas will be considered a win because the Palestinian people have been held in an open air prison for decades. And that will just lead to Hamas becoming more powerful.
If someone was abused horrifically as a child and decided to get a gun and take it out on others, what do you do? In a just world, you get them the help that they need. But in any world, the first thing you do is take the gun away before they can hurt anyone else.
What that means in this situation? I don’t know. Short of external military intervention, the Israeli government is not going to stand down. And I for one don’t want the US and NATO to fuck around in yet another middle eastern country for another two decades only to leave it considerably worse than we found it.
You realize Israel is controlling the prison in reality, right?
Hamas doesn’t shoot Palestinians that go to far off the coast, Israel does.
Hamas didn’t erect a huge border wall around Gaza, Israel did.
Hamas doesn’t control the supply of food, water, and goods into Gaza. Israel does.
Who controls Gaza?
How about we start by defunding Israel, followed by sanctions?
And what does that do about the violent terrorists who have already raped and murdered anyone who had the misfortune of being nearby and have repeatedly said they intend to do the same again?
How does that not increase their power?
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
So pull a Mexico gun running type operation in Gaza? What could ever go wrong.
All we need to do to reduce the power of Hamas is to stop actively blocking Gazans from importing weapons. Like, the individuals.
Hamas has no internal check, and that’s a big part of why it’s so god awful
It just might force Israel to fucking negotiate the future in good faith, if it no longer felt as if it could continue slow-walking the removal of an entire people from their lands. You are so quick to paint Palestinian violent as barbaric and incomprehensible, yet you ignore the larger scale violence that Israel has been inflicting on Palestine for decades. Bombs from above, collective punishment, punitive control over vital resources, imprisonment and torture of even children! For what? To make more space to house someone descended from ancestors who left that land a thousand years ago?
No. I painted what Hamas did as violent and barbaric and reprehensible. Rape and child killing tends to trigger that.
And you’ll note I even pointed out that a good chunk of why Hamas is in power is BECAUSE of the IDF
Again, we have been down this road. Syria is a hellscape. Afghanistan is a hellscape. When terrorists take control of a nation, it is the people who suffer. And regardless of why they are in power right now: they can’t continue to be in power if the actual welfare of the Palestinian people matters at all.
But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
Terrorists are in control of Israel. But then, my country does have a long history of financing terrorists, including in those other countries you mention. But hey, maybe this time it will work, right?
you know, you can add raping babies and eating them in your fairy tales. coward you are !
Was that really necessary?
Ok are you talking about Hamas or the Palestinian people? Cause I keep being told they’re different, and that Hamas doesn’t represent Palestinians, yet here you are talking about them as if they’re the same. So which is it? Cause you’re asking me to feel bad for Hamas fighters? Cause I won’t.
I didn’t mention Hamas, I said Israel is oppressing Palestinians and you should feel bad for the nearly 4,000 children that died.
Hamas is oppressing Palestinians and are responsible for the 4000 children that died. Non hamas Palestinians should try fleeing the country or fighting back against hamas so they can be free
Fight back? Lol. After being born in an open air prison.
After being born into oppression.
After being told they’re nothing more than animals.
After being thrown in prison as a kid for decades because they threw stones at a fucking tank.
After being slowly starved to death.
After being evicted from their lands and homes by the Israeli military, AND being mocked by the very settlers that take their homes from them right in front of their faces at the same time.
After their parents, children, siblings, aunts and uncles, their entire fucking bloodline is being bombed to death.
After watching the whole world just stand there and watch them being slaughtered just because Israel has more money, so they can lobby?
After weeks of Israel secretly lobbying the EU and US to displace all Palestinians to the Sinai peninsula, you know, a fucking HUGE part of another sovereign country like that’s very normal, all the while killing thousands of people for a little piece of their land? Now I understand why the Egyptian president Sisi told the EU to take in Gazans themselves, if they care so much about human rights.
After kids literally see organs and body parts flying around because of the bombing?
After having no access to water, so no drinking water, toilets, showers, dehumanising them. Opening one water source because of UN pressure and then a few days later bombing that specific water source…
After having no food for a month now.
After threatening the UN to teach them a lesson because they asked for a humanitarian pause.
After killing journalists and their entire family in precision attacks, so they can’t report what’s really going on?
After killing UN workers?
Right now they’ve also run out of medicine. One patient’s lungs had to be rinsed with ginger. They use effing ginger as an antibiotic/antiseptic. One kids leg had been blown off and they had to operate without anesthesia…
You want these people to fight? LOL.
There’s really no way Israel comes out of this as the ‘good guy’. The atrocities they committed and still are committing in less than a month’s time, has made the world forget about 7/10. THAT says something, because we thought THAT day was bad.
Yes fight back like so many oppressed people have done before. Or flee to a place that doesn’t oppress you.
Clearly you didn’t read any of that. Where can they go? They are essentially trapped. And of course they have to leave their homes when they’re being oppressed.
After being evicted from their lands and homes by the Israeli military, AND being mocked by the very settlers that take their homes from them right in front of their faces at the same time.
Actually in Gaza they have the 1967 borders and all the settlers were forcibly evicted in 2004/2005 (some at gunpoint). You’re thinking of the West Bank, we’re talking about Gaza.
A lot of this rant doesn’t really apply to Gaza.
The Palestinians you are telling to fight back are also children.
And ? Lots of revolutions are lead by the young.
44% of their population is under the age of 15. Name one revolution that was lead by an army of 7 year olds. If by some miracle you can, name one that was lead against a terrorist organization. Not some rinky-dink operation either. Terrorists that were, I don’t know, funded by a country like Iran?
Holy shit, you are actually retarded.
So you’re saying literal children, like 5-7 years old, should fight back against armed grown ass men?
16 isn’t considered even a teenager in that part of the planet. When people say kid in reference to the middle east, they mean an actual young child.
And become like… The west bank?
Where can they flee?
Honestly if anyone actually cared about the people there’s loads of places that could go, I’m sure Israel would even help fund the building of a city on Saudi Arabia or Iran, plenty of space and cities are getting built in the region all the time. They could all live nice happy lives
But no one will let that happen of course because it’s not about the people it’s about the land, and not even land with resources - land the people funding all this have no intention of ever visiting, but they don’t want Israel to have it.
What you are describing is ethnic cleansing
Literally anywhere. Have you looked at the people illegally crossing the usa southern border? There are Russians and idians. They can escape almost anywhere they have access to flight through then ocean or land borders
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It would be crazy if you had basic empathy for the almost 4,000 Palestinian children killed
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Tell me what Israeli news do you watch? I personally watch i24 and regularly keep up with Israeli politics. Do you even know what Kahanism is, who Ben Gavir is, or why so many people (myself included) despise the far right crime minister BB?
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I’m not simply an American who decided to take interest in Israel, I’m Jewish and regularly speak to Israelis. I have heard them openly talking about how civilian deaths are justified and how killing Arabs is ok. Nearly every day I have to suffer through their horrific propaganda. I understand I have everything to gain yet I refuse to gain from the suffering of 9,000 civilian deaths.
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You aren’t wrong, but I can tell you’re smart enough to make your point without rule 3 ad hominem attacks.
Abandoned by the world?! Are you completely removed from reality?
The fact that you’re citing Gaza having a coastline as evidence that it’s not an open-air prison, without mentioning that Isreal controls those waters and does not allow Palestinian use of them (aside from small-scale fishing) tell me that you have no idea what the fuck you’re talking about.
Educate yourself before telling people to educate themselves. You’re spouting bullshit and look a fool.
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Ok, so you’re not saying Gaza isn’t an open-air prison, you’re just defending why it should be one. Cool.
The Likud Party hat that phrase in it’s founding charter: “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”
Yes, it was used earlier by the PLO but back then the meaning was more like “take back what was ours”. It was not against the jews, they were there before the founding of Israel. It was against the forced taking of land by creating the state of Israel.
Extremist forces took it further, especially Hamas. But by then the sitation was already complicated enough for an easy solution…
Surprise: It’s not. They’re giving them less than the amount they need not to starve.
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So, who’s responsibility is it to feed them?
Their military occupiers, Israel. Or maybe the people blockading them and actually controlling how much aid goes in and how much they can import (with their meagre economy since they’re not allowed to export their goods), which is also Israel. Maybe the people who actually created the current situation and actively worked to maintain it so Palestinians can’t have peace—you guessed it, Israel.
Egypt also could provide help, but for some “strange reason” they do not want. All the countries that cheered on October 7th and supposedly support Palestine, won’t provide any help beyond weapons. They don’t give damn, their goal is to kill Jews, and if Palestinians die in the process, hey that’s “even better”.
Their military occupiers, Israel.
Aside for some areas in North Gaza, Israel doesn’t occupy the Gaza Strip, and hasn’t for decades.
Then why is the Gaza strip considered to be occupied by the UN?
1 nation one vote combine with a European history of hating Jews and Gypsies.
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How about this: It’s solely unrwas responsibility, but anyone who specifically bombs unrwa resources has to take over fully?
How about this. It’s the responsibility of the government in charge, Hamas to consider the feeding and care of it’s citizens as a part of its war plan with its neighbors.
All aid has to be approved and funneled through Israel. Remember the freedom floatilla?
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Well it’s kind of their responsibility, since you ask, since they’re completely blockading them. Otherwise it’s undeniably genocidal mass starvation.
Removed for rule three. You can disagree without ad hominem attacks.
Quite disappointed with Sen. Sanders on this one considering his general stance. Barack Obama had a better understanding here:
How about Israel stop bombing civilians so that Hamas doesn’t get new recruits? Does it really not occur to them that 7000+ civilians killed is going to radicalize more youth. Especially since Gaza’s demographic is mostly youngsters due to past conflicts killing off those who survive for longer.
It’s quite clear that in this conflict, the following people have all the gain: Netanyahu who wants to prolong the war to keep corruption charges and an ouster at bay, by winning favor with Israel conservative fundamentalists; Hamas who successfully intervened when relations were about to be mended with the Saudis, Israel, and a few other countries; Putin, whom the U.S is funding against in the conflict with Ukraine; U.S. war manufacturers that supply the missiles to Israel.
Edit: Fixed some typos and an incorrect negation
Edit2: It’s been pointed out to me that there was a wild misrepresentation of what Sanders said. My faith is restored. Thankfully it was I who foolishly fell for this clickbait.
Quite disappointed with Sen. Sanders on this one
If you ever read a headline about Bernie and are disappointed in what he said, it’s a pretty good chance he said some other stuff too that got left out.
“The immediate task right now is to end the bombing,” Sanders said Sunday, “to end the horrific humanitarian disaster, to build – go forward with the entire world for a two-tier, two-state solution to the crisis to give the Palestinian people hope.”
Just because the headline doesn’t have him also criticizing Netanyahu, doesn’t mean he’s suddenly supporting him.
Agree with you. I was browsing when out on a weekend and fell for the clickbait.
The CNN article seems to be cherry-picking his statements. This is his op-ed on the topic which is much more in-depth:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders
Yeah you need to actually read what he said.
I mean, at this point, just stopping the bombing isn’t going to stop giving Hamas recruits, because people will remember the bombings and other things already done, and will remember for a long time, and Hamas is certainly going to milk them for all they can get. Continuing the bombing makes things much worse of course, but just stopping by itself isn’t all that’s needed for peace, just the start. Which is what I suspect he’s getting at based on some of the context other people have replied, a cease-fire that just returns things to how they were before the current elevated level of conflict isn’t viable, because the same conditions would exist that led to what is going on now, and so it would just happen again sometime later.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
As Israel continues its fourth week of intense bombardment of the besieged Gaza strip, huge crowds of protesters have gathered to call for a ceasefire in Washington, D.C. as well as in other capital cities around the globe.
Israeli airstrikes have targeted hospitals, schools, refugee camps and ambulances, sparking outrage from the international community and warnings from rights groups that the strikes may constitute war crimes.
Israel maintains it does not target civilians and its attacks on the strip are intended to eradicate Hamas, the militant Islamist organization that governs Gaza and is considered a terrorist group by the US and EU among other countries.
While the Biden administration has consistently advocated for humanitarian pauses to facilitate getting fuel into the war-torn strip and getting civilians out, Secretary of State Antony Blinken remains opposed to a ceasefire, arguing that it would give Hamas time to regroup and launch another attack on Israel.
In recent weeks, she has roiled some of her colleagues determined to present a united front amid the Israel-Hamas war as divisions have grown more personal.
The video – which features images of protests with chants of “Free Palestine” and ‘From the river to the sea” across Michigan, California, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois and New York – ends with text that states: “Joe Biden supported the genocide of the Palestinian people,” “The American people won’t forget,” “Biden, support the ceasefire now,” and “Or don’t count on us in 2024.”
The original article contains 514 words, the summary contains 229 words. Saved 55%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Blink twice if you are been kidnapped
Honestly this is the most coherent take Sanders has had on Israel this decade.
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I think he’s right in a more technical sense. You can’t have a cease-fire unless everyone stops firing. If someone isn’t going to stop firing, you can’t have a cease fire with them.
It takes two to cease fire, so to speak.
He explicitly said they need to stop bombing civilians several times. Read the fucking article dipshit.
You know, I wonder how many people would support guerilla tactics if they were living in the fucking hunger games.
Murdering civilians isn’t ‘guerilla tactics’. It’s not even a useful form of terrorism.
Seems to be working for Bibi.
Let me rephrase that - it’s not a useful form of terrorism for achieving reasonable goals. If one’s goal is to perpetuate a pointless and bloody sectarian conflict so that one can hold onto power over their own people even as the overall prosperity of the nation suffers, I guess murdering civilians is useful.
When killing is mostly or entirely random, all that happens is that the civilian population at large begins to consider themselves (rightly) under threat, and the conflict is perpetuated by mutual fear and spite rather than fear being a means to leverage negotiations or achieving policy.
It really isn’t, he’s so unpopular even the rally around the flag effect hasn’t saved him from regular demands he resign
Honestly probably the same amount of people who’d support carpet bombing Florida if they started firing missiles into neighbouring states.
If you only imagine yourself on one side it’s easy to say the other one is evil but live isn’t that simple really
Nobody would support that,
The combination of swamp gas and meth would turn the entire peninsula into the world’s largest MOAB
The crater would be large enough to expose the fucking mantle
Category section of Bernie’s wikipage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders
so, you know Bernie, fuck you.
If your reaction to something Bernie said or did is “fuck you”, you should read more. He said that the bombings need to stop ASAP, then the whole world needs to help things progress to a two-state solution.
“I don’t know how you can have a ceasefire, (a) permanent ceasefire, with an organization like Hamas, which is dedicated to turmoil and chaos and destroying the state of Israel,
This is pretty clear to me. this fallacy of saying “destroying the state of Israel”, which is
- impossible - this a high-end military state
- this is Israel which is fucking destroying palestine, there is no more factual than this.
- hamas* or whatever you call it today is just “replying” to this fact
As far as I know, this is not Israeli which get their water/food/electricity/movement/borders controlled, this is not Israeli under the bombs, this is not Israeli moving to the south…
So Bernie… we can’t even talk kind of chessmaster rhetoric (“ya know, he critics Israel behind”), this is pure cowardice if not dishonesty (by its affiliation)
*cause of course, Isreal is creating generation of - legit - haters
He kind of has a point. The idea that a permanent ceasefire with Hamas is impossible has some merit. The keyword here is permanent, that any ceasefire will eventually collapse and lead to this situation happening again. Then he clarifies what should be done instead.
I don’t agree with him on this point, don’t get me wrong, but the point seems to be that a return to pre-Oct 7 conditions won’t do any favors for everybody. He says this too in the article:
“The immediate task right now is to end the bombing,” Sanders said Sunday, “to end the horrific humanitarian disaster, to build – go forward with the entire world for a two-tier, two-state solution to the crisis to give the Palestinian people hope.”
That’s a pretty agreeable position.
Again, you are ignoring the context. This is not Hamas - or whatever you call it today - a population is getting decimated on a faster pace right now! 7 Oct was tragic (still, not everything has been investigated yet and we know Israeli’s trend to inflate shit) but it CAN’T be drawn as a sacred milestone which could erase all the previous and atrocious forfeits, should I say “crimes”, committed by Israel.
I mean he says the bombing needs to end and has voted as much in the Senate… He’s definitely not claiming Israel is in any way innocent.
We’re falling into the trap of “Do you condemn Hamas” here. Not any mention of Hamas needs to be accompanied by a condemnation of Israel, just as not every mention of Israel needs to come with a condemnation of Hamas.
We’re falling into the trap of “Do you condemn Hamas” here.
Not at all, I see what you mean but no. The “relation” is irrelevant here. Who has the power, the control and who is dying?
That’s such a simplistic view though, how long would you ignore a country firing missiles at you and sneaking in to kill civilians? Israel spent staggering sums on defensive security rather than just carpet bombing and still they find ways to kill Israelies.
And they always will, the leader of Hamas went to Iran again the other day to talk about further support that Iran can give them - they already train Palestinian fighters, supply them with missiles, scuba suits, paragliders, and tunnel making equipment. This isn’t just a small city being bullied it’s a proxy war, and yeah there are people in Palestine who don’t support Hamas but it’s not just Israel that’s too blame for their bad experience - fundamentalist despots need them to be there suffering and dying so they can have a reason to keep attacking Israel, so they can hold Israel up as a bogeyman to cement their power at home.
This isn’t a simple situation, Israel can’t just stop fighting and tear down it’s walls.
No, you probably can’t. But you can, however, hold the moral high ground and offer one.
This only leads to a North Korea situation where you end up in a cycle of appeasement, every time they make a threat or attack.
Idk about you but the current situation doesn’t look like appeasement to me.
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers
the Palestiniansthe governing body of palestinians offered to Israel -None
That doesn’t sound right. One of those was stopped by an assassination. One was stopped by conservatives gaining power in Israel. One was stopped by a war between Fatah and Hamas.
The PLO offered peace in 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2014 and were stopped by Israel.
Many were stopped because of a Hamas attack or Israel refusing to stop taking West Bank territory.
It seems like you were saying that because Palestine didn’t give in to Israel’s demands every time that it’s always their fault.
This is from some quick research, though. Someone feel free to correct me.
The PLO offered peace in 2010, 2012, 2013, and 2014
Yes, and it was all for shit because hamas threatened violence if any party thought about compromise. Aka. Exactly what i wrote.
Kind of, but not really. You were equating Hamas and all Palestinians together. They’re not all the same. Lots of Palestinians want peace, including ones that have been in governing positions. I’m glad you crossed out the one sentence that did that but you’ve still got this one:
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
That’s a very ambiguous “they” up there and seems to refer to all Palestinians and not just Hamas.
Hamas has been a great excuse to break off peace negotiations, though. I can see why Bibi propped them up to prevent a two state solution. It’s worked wonders, although hopefully the blowback of this past event takes him out of political life forever now.
