I thought this article was interesting, in that I am immediately suspicious of the motives of some of people quoted. The conclusion runs counter to what I want to be true, and I’m curious what other people make of it.
Also men: Do you actually feel attacked? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen someone criticised for like being strong and capable, or a good carpenter, or a protective dad or whatever. Is this a real thing? or just something that is used as cover like the traditional values vs violent misogyny terminology.
P.S. Thinking there are hordes of ravenous cancellers waiting in the wings is extremely funny to me. Not exactly beating the allegations that listening to Jo Rogan damages your perception of reality.
The most baffling thing about it is that Joe Rogan was a comedian for most of his professional life yet his show is not funny at all. The one thing I can say in his favour is that he gives his guests unlimited time and space to talk. So many interviewers talk over their guests and try to be the centre of attention I just hate it. But Rogan’s guests don’t interest me with all the kooky stuff they promote, and Rogan himself eats it all up.
“I’ve literally seen this happen, it’s like: ‘oh don’t talk to him, he likes Joe Rogan, he’s probably one of these weird alt-right guys’.”
[…]
For Alexander, Rogan’s rise ran counter to the identity politics spilling out university campuses, a yin to yang of a “woke mind virus” that he felt was targeting people like him.
Gee Alexander, you’re not doing a good job of showing you’re not one of those weird alt-right guys.
These fucking little cowards like to hide behind victimhood as if they’re not just shit people deserving of it.
Yeah… he seemed like a kind of person I’ve known but it’s a few snippets from an interview. Maybe there’s a more charitable way to read it, more of a joke.
Edgelords with inflated opinions of their intelligence, and morons.
Those two are not mutually exclusive.
Do you actually feel attacked? I’m not sure I’ve ever seen someone criticised for like being strong and capable
I don’t get it, where is the link between being attacked and being strong and capable?
“middle path of masculinity”, between the “emasculated” and “browbeaten” male of the far left and the Tate-like women haters and “pickup artists” of the far right.
“We want to foster the good side [of masculinity],” he says. “Which is being on the mission, wanting to be strong, being something of a warrior, but also being the good man, the loving husband, the loving partner, the good father”
“There is a vitriol against that idea[…]"
If you ask most people who allegedly want to brow beat men what “good masculinity” is you would probably get stuff like:
- strong and helpful
- patient
- skilled
- protects people
- Loving and attentive
- Takes care of body and mind
- Good in a crisis
This guy is claiming men are attacked for wanting to be strong, loving, a good father, and ‘something of a warrior’
Idk what the last means but I basically only see men attacked for
- treating women as less then men
- using violence to solve problems that could be talked out
- using violence on the vulnerable
Which uh, notably aren’t in his list of reason men are attacked. So I want to ask what men’s opinions are.
"browbeaten” male of the far left
This line really stood out to me. Have they met anyone on the left in their lives?
It’s like they have some imaginary idea of what a left-winger looks and acts like in their minds.
The left doesn’t want you to know this but 100% of leftist women are dommes
I think there is also a legitimate response here to the general acceptance of “all men should just die” rhetoric that was popular for a while there (and still is in some circles).
When I was young I told a girlfriend that I wanted to get into politics to help people. She responded, “but you are a white man, you can’t help anyone” or something of the like. Really sticks with you.
“but you are a white man, you can’t help anyone” or something of the like. Really sticks with you.
That’s a silly thing to say but it also sounds like it came from the mouth of a teenager? Teenagers say lots of dumb stuff I wouldn’t recommend forming societal views based on them.
Most women have had the experience of being humiliated sexually, and belittled intellectually by young men. Do you feel that women should feel like we’re under attack?
I can’t say you should feel anything, simply that I’ve felt as though society doesn’t want my help due to my gender. Therefore, could extrapolate that into a reason other men might feel that way.
I don’t understand people generally, but I do my best to give people the benefit of the doubt.
I’m not trying to have a go, I’m trying to understand. I agree that feeling shut out and having people say awful stuff because of your gender is bad. Surely you see that women deal with this too right though? and extremely extensively.
If you look at the upper echelons of society women are not there, if you look at the trades women aren’t respected, in corporate life women routinely feel like they have to get a man to say their ideas to be taken seriously. When I worked tech support I signed my emails with a man’s name because otherwise customers argued with me (this wasn’t me being ridiculous, my boss asked me to start doing it because he got annoyed reading the tickets going overtime).
So it’s like, surely having experienced some of it you get that all of it is bad right? You wouldn’t arrive at men being under attack, but rather gender equality being important so nobody feels this way.
Try to see it from the other side, though. I know that equality is the utopian goal. But you must know how it feels when you are having a hard to deal with emotion, and you come to someone with it and get shut down. Receiving “women deal with this to” as a response when you just want to feel heard and listened to it hard.
Men also I’m general don’t receive the emotional training in society that women do. So reaching out and trying to work through an emotion they don’t really understand, only to be told that women have it worse is a perpetration of toxic masculinity imo.
Treating the other gender as an infant is a huge problem within our society, no doubt. But when dealing with emotions, men are, for the most part, uneducated. Emotional maturity is mostly a person by person and emotion by emotion discussion.
Yes you can say that most problems men face women face too. But men face them alone. Earlier, you asked if a man would feel more safe asking another man to walk them to the train station, of course they would. But would they feel entitled to ask a man to go out of their way to help them feel safe? I would walk a woman anywhere and even offer if it were at all sketchy. Ive never asked any man to make me feel more safe other than my single best friend who I’ve not spoken to in months.
I think many are quick to colour all men with the same brush when any man does something bad (murder, domestic violence, etc). This ignores the fact that most men aren’t doing this and are helpless to stop it. It’s not like we’re choosing to let domestic violence to continue. We’re just as powerless as anyone else.
And there’s a real focus on the worst of men’s behaviour, without any appreciation of the good things men do, to balance it out.
All men are flawed, just like all women are flawed (except my Mrs). We’re all a mix of good and bad, trying to do our best.
It’s not like we’re choosing to let domestic violence to continue. We’re just as powerless as anyone else.
I think this is really interesting, who do you think can?
It’s also true that male loneliness is pretty significant, and lonely guys are more prone to developing extreme and hateful views but the only people that can do anything about man to man friendships are other men.
There are some fantastic initiatives like lens sheds that are trying to knit a healthy social structure and almost nobody participates in them.
Men don’t have to have male friends to not be lonely. Any friends will do. I have lots of great female friends.
As far as solving domestic violence, I don’t know how to do that. But I think we can all agree that we want it to end. Probably even the perpetrators of DV want it to end.
Maybe a big part of it is finding those who are most likely to be perpetrators and try to understand them better. And help them better understand themselves.
I do note an interesting difference in your approach to how to handle DV vs how to handle someone stringing a wire across a bike path. It may be a contradiction you wish to reflect on.
You might want to read this book to get a better idea behind the psychology of DV.
What are you doing to prevent DV? (Not a challenge, I’m genuinely curious if you’re part of any efforts)
So if you read that book, or look into any of the research behind DV you will learn that it’s not really a problem women can confront at the source because the psychology behind it is one which fundamentally views women as inferior. In the same way if someone is racist somebody from a group they hate is unlikely to meet with much success trying to change their views (at best probably getting recognition as “one of the good ones”) women talking to men about why we’re actually whole-arse people doesn’t work very well.
Aside from trying in vain to get men to learn literally anything about why DV happens and why they can actually make a massive difference talking to their mates and setting norms for acceptable ideas about women at work/at the gym/at the club etc it’s not really in my means to donate to a shelter or whatever. I do volunteer for the greens around elections.
That said, being a woman in society there’s the sort of basic keeping an eye on things. Making a point to chat with neighbours, hosting drinks, sharing food etc that gives you a bit of a chance to have a network of support for people, victims tend to hide the harm believing themselves to be at fault so there’s not a good chance you’ll actually know. You can call a welfare check on a house if you hear a nasty fight but it’s unlikely to do much.
I listened to a few of his interviews some years back and only really came away with the conclusion that he’s a dumbfuck who’ll get most of his opinions from the last person he talked to.
Don’t forget the money he’s given.
Who’s this Jo Rogan sheila?
Some yank wanker
There’s a lot if casual misandry in the media. There is a rejection of the traditional male head of the household gender role but there isn’t a clearly defined replacement that we agree to so right now a lot if younger men have no real masculine ideal to aspire to and guys like Rogan fill that hole as he’s supposedly tough, funny, responsible and a solid bread winner for his family (regardless of whether that is accurate IDK). He gives guys a model to aspire to even if it is controversial.
What I wonder is how we shift away from the caveman ideal that Rogan represents to someone more in the vein of Bob Ross or Fred Rodgers (Mr Rodgers Neighborhood). We would all be better if guys wanted to be Fred Rodgers
There’s a lot if [sic] casual misandry in the media.
Yeah righto little fella
Go watch some sitcoms and try to find a father who is competent. It’s fairly rare. We have a lot of narratives that portray men as less rational/capable parents.
Like I said it’s casual. It’s not on the same level as the misogyny in society but it is there.
That’s actually a really interesting example. Like yeah, you’re kinda right that that sorta portrayal can foster low-level misandrist attitudes, but I’d say that in a society that systemically devalues that sort of work, portraying men as being generally incompetent at child-rearing and household tasks is mostly to their own benefit, because that stereotype implies that unpaid domestic labour is better just left to women. It’s like weaponised incompetence at scale.
I hate Joe Rogan, but occasionally he has interesting guests on, and I’m forced to tolerate him for a bit.
I am curious if you have any episodes you would recommend? I have seen the worst. I wonder what the good ones are and would be interested to better understand the appeal.
I tend to go for very dry and academic podcasts. We’re not so different, maintenance phase, when diplomacy fails, Australia in the world, tech wont save us etc.
Not what you asked for but I assume you already listen to Stuff You Should Know? Thats a super easy listening general science & culture podcast for background listening while working or traffic.
I feel like Tim Heidecker’s parody of rogan says more than this article did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Iyg9fznvM
Linking to an 11 hour video is a bold move
Spoiler
It loops seamlessly every 90 or so minutes
I’ve listened somewhere between 500 to 1000 episodes from him. I wouldn’t exactly call myself a fan but it’s just one of the shows I’ve subscribed to on my podcast app and when ever he has a quest on who sounds interesting I download the episode and listen to it while working. I don’t agree with him on everything but that applies to all the other podcasters I listen to as well. Joe has his flaws but generally I find him smart, nice, honest and a reasonable person. If one bases their opinion about him on the articles and YouTube clips of him then I can’t really blame them for having a skewed perspective but personally, as someone who has listened thru the entire 3 hour episode and knows the full context, I’m not very convinced by most of the accusations made of him. One simply couldn’t hide their “true personality” while putting out tens of thousands if hours of unscripted discussions online. I feel pretty confident in saying that I know Joe about as well as you can know someone without ever having met them.
