I think the real division on the “left” can be boiled down to those using all the language and rhetoric of left wing ideology but in service of fascist and conservative ideas.
For example, tankies or people who have been brainwashed by tankies; a person can spend all day talking about how they support Palestine and BLM and LGBT rights etc. but then turn around and defend the CCP, which completely undermines any claim that they’re actually on the left/center.
So in that way it’s less of a “progressives never agree” and more of a “anti-progressive ideas are constantly pushed into progressive spaces to undermine them.”
I think it is often more subtle than something like Tankies defending the CCP or Russia. A lot of people who call themselves left or progressive still think the world just needs the “correct” strong-man, when one of the biggest defining things of “left” is going against engrained power structures.
While it is possible to be left-ish and support particular leaders, it is seldom a sign of an actually enlightened person if they think only a “strong man” can fix things. Tankies fit squarely in the center of that, but there are LARGE fringes where people seriously do not understand some of the core axioms of “left” politics while also not being full blown tankies.
Isn’t that the point of the meme? Leftists can share 94% of views, but if they disagree on one thing they are treated as the worst enemy, rather than the people who share 0% of the same views.
Correct, if those differences are irreconcilable. I can ally with lefties that want slightly different things, but “America is evil therefore Stalin wasn’t that bad” is not someone grounded in reality.
Those things people disgree on are entire political axioms, so yes it is much bigger than a meme. Tankies think strong men are a good thing, which should be antithetical to anyone with the faintest hint of actual big boy anarchy in their politics. Worshiping leaders OR positions is literally and directly antithetical to MUCH of the left.
OFC there will be infighting when most people don’t even understand what the left stands for. IMO, we shouldn’t even dignify tankies and other strong-men liking idiots with a label anywhere close to “left”. They’re just idiot fascists wearing a different coat to try and fit in.
I don’t see many actual Tankies then, I guess. Most Marxists just want a Worker-State and explicitly reject “Great Man Theory.” I agree that worshipping strong men is antithetical to the left, but I also see this in a very fringe minority, and at that point the meme no longer applies as there is far more than 6% divergence.
MAGA Communists and PatSocs are clowns, I agree, but I don’t think they share a significant percentage of views with anyone on the Left, Marxist or Anarchist alike.
Most Marxists just want a Worker-State and explicitly reject “Great Man Theory.” I agree that worshipping strong men is antithetical to the left, but I also see this in a very fringe minority
A minimal state. Representative of the people/proletariat. Not a brutal mono party that tries to crush all dissent.
And if strong man worship is so fringe and antithetical to ML. Why has it been a defining feature of every system of governance based on it? Stalin, Mao or Xi today, Castro, Kim Il Sung. Fringe is supposed to imply it’s not a core component of every single implementation and yet it is.
I think it’s fair to say that Marxists agree with Marx, and so the best representation of Marx is Critique of the Gotha Programme. The state should be as minimal as can be based on the Material Conditions, ie a stronger state is necessary if you are constantly being attacked by Capitalist nations, and a weaker state is necessary if you aren’t. I don’t think people are advocating for a strong monoparty, but a unified front of Workers. At least, in my experience.
Stalin, Mao, Xi, Castro, Kim Il Sung, Ho Chi Minh, Lenin, Trotsky, Che, Sankara, Deng, whoever you want to pick, aren’t so much worshipped as they are studied, for their mistakes and the good things they did. Some are obviously more mistake than others, some were a net negative, some were a net positive, what’s important is to study what happened so we can learn from it.
Is anything I said wrong?
Yes. External factors are one thing entirely. And completely unrelated to crushing dissent. Dissent is an internal thing. And if you automatically classify all the dissent as a product of external factors there by making it something to fight and crush. You may have just perfectly encapsulated the issues with your ideology.
Also while I agree capitalists are not really good friends. They used to be Allied with the Russians during World War II for example. It’s almost like something happened post World War II that was actually the problem. And not just that capitalists must be fought everywhere. Do you know what that might have been? It’s something China is currently dealing with and failing in their own way. And I’m not going to say that it’s not hypocritical for many Western countries to criticize this considering what they’ve done. But just because a criticism is hypocritical doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
I never said I was against dissent. I’d be in favor of trying to rehabilitate fascists and Capitalists, sure, but open discussion of ideas is important. You calling it “issues with my ideology” is a bit silly.
I am not sure I understand where you are going with your second paragraph.
I mean, you can use that same logic on the US government, even Democrat run ones, which have supported genocides in the past and even current ongoing ones, and have tried to stomp out left movements, been racist, sexist, and homophobic. But people have still supported the US and the Democratic party and called themselves leftist. The point is, I assume as I’m not a CCP Stan myself or anything, is to give critical support to back an actual socialist project and give a counterweight to a pure single superpower world (esp. When that superpower has destroyed or undermined almost every left project it can in the world). Critical support meaning you pick out the good from the bad, supporting the good and criticizing the bad. China actually puts a leash on its billionaires = good. But they seem to be forcing some cultural integration of Uyghurs = bad. But they’re providing lots of housing and cheap EV’s = good. But they can have bad working conditions = bad. But they’re helping support economies and infrastructure in the global South with the Belt and Road project = good. But they keep doing that shit with territory in the south seas = bad. But they seem to have a long-term plan for implementing communism that they are actually following = good. And so on. I do think some people go too far in being CCP supportive, but I also think some people on Lemmy go too far the other direction, and think everyone that gives the slightest critical support to China or analyzes some US propaganda on China a bit before swallowing it is a CCP troll.
In the end, it’s a mixed bag, but I do think there is some worth to not having a single hegemonic superpower in the world, so other leftist countries or colonized global south ones have alternative access to allies, trade, and support without bowing down to the US and their often reactionary policies. Cuba for example was doing pretty good until the Soviet Union fell and basically the only market became the western, US-controlled one that they had been mostly sanctioned the hell out of. I wish it was a better country than China, but hopefully they improve their social issues as they improve economically, which tends to be the pattern. I just wish they’d stop doing the aggressive maneuvers near the Philippines and Vietnam.
This is exactly what I see. Many people see critical support and assume it as uncritical support, then extrapolate nonsensical views from that. Like, if someone says they think it’s cool that China has high speed rail, that doesn’t mean they wish 100 Tianannmenn massacres annually and to personally fellate Xi.
Nah dude you got it all wrong, Tianannmenn square was a western psyop. and all those “prisons” in xianjiang are just really secure hotels or something idk.
Execution vans? never heard of them m8
But the same people will say that Israel has to be 100% opposed, even though they are a democracy where lots of people disagree with the current actions of the government.
So China’s problems are ignored but Israel’s are not. That’s the definition of bias.
I don’t really think this is an equivalent statement. Israel isn’t opposed because it’s a liberal democracy, but because it is an aparthied state carrying out a genocide and propped up by the US to protect its business interests.
I think what annoys me is when people assume I support shit like the CCP or Putin just because of my leftist views, or because I didn’t make sure to criticize them every single time I criticize anything/anyone else (good ol’ whataboutism). The amount of times I’ve been attacked by supposed leftists that are really just liberals in disguise, is far too high.
“Hey, you didn’t criticize Putin in your comment that clearly isn’t even about Putin in any way, so I’m going to make a sweeping assumption and say that you support him.”
Don’t criticize Biden here, or they automatically say that you want Cheeto Hitler to win and you’re actually a fascist. So many people fail to see that their commentary and childish reductionism is counterproductive to a leftist movement. They also fail to see that what they’re doing is a tactic of neoliberals and fascists. It’s divisive language that solves nothing, and is used to always keep the opposition in a defensive stance. We’re seeing it first hand today with Israel and the US government repeatedly stating that defending Palestine is considered antisemitism. They went as far as redefining the word entirely just so they can drown out the peace movement with noise.
[ In fake Scottish accent ] They’re natural enemies. Like fascists and leftists! Or neoliberals and leftists! Or moderates and leftists! Or leftists and leftists! Damn leftists! They ruined leftism!
You leftists sure are a contentious bunch.
Gotta prove that I am more left than every one else. /s
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Anti capitalism is just anti capitalism. That’s not a theory for how a society free from capitalism should work. Those theories will of course be diverse, and there will be disagreement.
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Divide and conquer works for detroying social movements, and is one of the ruling classes favorite weapons of class warfare. It’s easy to get agitators to derail the conversation or movement as a whole. There are fundamental differences in what anti capitalists believe should be done and how power should be distributed. I don’t believe all leftists think the same thing, but I believe that the vast majority of “leftist infighting” is just agitation by the ruling class.
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Reminds me of when I was still religious lol. I was a part of the confusingly named Christian Church denomination (or something like that). But hey, because some churches believed in “once saved, always saved” we didn’t get along! Which is hilarious because being away from it now all three of these very devisive topics
- Once saved, always saved
- You can lose salvation
- Pre destination
All are really talked about the same way. If you don’t act in what people believe is a god fearing manner then you were never actually saved to begin with.
But for real, basically every other part of the doctrine is the same. Jesus was the son of God who was fully God and fully human who died and was resurrected 3 days later. But because they taught sprinkling instead of immersion for baptism oh my god what a horrible misunderstanding of the scriptures!
Nah leftists true enemy is the luke warm centrist who will agree in theory but not in action. Fascists are atleast honest and easy to spot. Its the people in the middle who bothsides evey argument till we are sitting here watching genocide happening before our eyes and still nothing is done to stop it.
the luke warm centrist who will agree in theory but not in action
So, like the entire half of Lemmy calling for armed revolution against the US government?
Don’t forget leftists that actually share all the same views but describe them in slightly different ways.
MLK was spot on about the white moderate.
Malcolm X had similar things to say
You just triggered all the tankies. They’re now chanting “nuke the west”.
This is the third time this week.
This is the third time
this weekin the last hour
Next at 5: Watch tankies, democratic socialists, and anarchists engage in a full blown shit flinging contest!
In my experience, Anarchists and democratic socialists usually get along just fine, so long as they don’t argue over semantics. Tankies aren’t leftists.
eeeeh…Look into what happened to Karl Liebknecht from the democratic socialists. Anarchists get along with both SocDems and Tankies so long as talk doesn’t go to praxis or if it does and they advocate for anarchist praxis (which is usually what happens when they don’t have power)
CIA’s Simple Sabotage Field Manual
